non regulated firearms tracking in MD

pcfixer · Feb 17, 2019

Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 8 (5 members and 3 guests)

Is minic a gheibhean beal oscailt diog dunta!

Malleovic · Feb 17, 2019

pcfixer said:
Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 8 (5 members and 3 guests)

Is minic a gheibhean beal oscailt diog dunta!

Well I literally don't have anyone else to talk about this with. I've already annoyed the wife enough.

Allen65 · Feb 17, 2019

Malleovic said:
How is this not a taking under the 5th amendment? You can't sell an unserialized firearm before the deadline because that's illegal under federal law. If we also have no avenue to serialize the thing legally before the deadline, AND there's no grandfather clause (since the date specified was 86), we're stuck with destroying the thing, which denies us any value from ownership of the property.

It's also a taking under Article III Section 40 of the Maryland Constitution, and courts in MD have upheld that concept for tangible as well as real property, except for bumpstocks. Because...gunz r bad, m'kay?!

whistlersmother · Feb 17, 2019

Malleovic said:
Iirc, prior to the ATF's most recent decision it would have been legal to sell a bumpstock out of state, so you could be compensated that way. The owner of a finished 80 has no such recourse, since that would break federal law.

Unless you're talking about the ATF's decision itself. Re that, I'm surprised it didn't happen sooner.

An 80% finished into a completed lower CAN be sold. ATF requires* a serial number and it must have been completed without the intention of selling.

Will there be a market out-of-state? I highly doubt a completed 80% can even be sold for $1 - buyer inherits too many potential manufacturing issues...

In free states, people can just buy one on a 4473 and walk out with it. And they'll simply build their own 80% if they want off the books.

From a legal point, I don't think it's a "takings", but from a practical point, it most certainly is.

One would have to gauge out of-state storage fees versus cost of the 80% lowers versus penalities/probability of getting caught in-state.

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Malleovic · Feb 17, 2019

whistlersmother said:
An 80% finished into a completed lower CAN be sold. ATF requires* a serial number and it must have been completed without the intention of selling.

I thought you had to have an actual FFL for manufacturing if you were going to sell something you yourself legally "built", serial number and all. Is this not the case?

Mark75H · Feb 17, 2019

Malleovic said:
I thought you had to have an actual FFL for manufacturing if you were going to sell something you yourself legally "built", serial number and all. Is this not the case?

As long as it meets:

must have been completed without the intention of selling.

Then, yes, you can apply to ATF, get a serial number, have it marked, and then sell it.

whistlersmother · Feb 17, 2019

Mark75H said:
As long as it meets:

Then, yes, you can apply to ATF, get a serial number, have it marked, and then sell it.

Don't need to apply to ATF for serial. There are rules, but you come up with serial number and also your name and address. See the ATF rules here: https://www.atf.gov/firearms/firear...rms-ammunition-firearms-verification-overview

Specifically "How must firearms be identified"

Remember, if it was not your intent to make for sale, you can sell a homemade firearm later given the rules are followed. Making with intent to sell requires FFL07, at least.

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Malleovic · Feb 17, 2019

whistlersmother said:
Don't need to apply to ATF for serial. There are rules, but you come up with serial number and also your name and address. See the ATF rules here: Specifically "How must firearms be identified"

Would this make the firearm compliant with HB0740 as written?

I'm only getting more confused but that would be nice if the case

EDIT: Damn, I don't think it would, since as written you need to have it serialised by an FFL BEFORE 1986. This is insanity

randomuser · Feb 17, 2019

When ever in history was an american not allowed to manufacture his own firearm?

Not rhetorical... I'm asking if there was a time.

lazarus · Feb 17, 2019

Malleovic said:
Iirc, prior to the ATF's most recent decision it would have been legal to sell a bumpstock out of state, so you could be compensated that way. The owner of a finished 80 has no such recourse, since that would break federal law.

Unless you're talking about the ATF's decision itself. Re that, I'm surprised it didn't happen sooner.

It wouldn’t, you can serialize them and sell them out of state. You just can’t be making them for people or as a business. IE if you made the firearms for yourself and decided to sell them later you aren’t in the business as a manufacturer. If you make one for your neighbor, you are a criminal.

Just need to add a makers mark and a unique to you as the maker serial number and it is legal to sell. Since it is out of state the sale would need to go to or through an FFL.

I am pretty outraged about the proposed law, but it isn’t quite a taking. Of course the result is likely we will need to destroy them.

lazarus · Feb 17, 2019

Malleovic said:
Would this make the firearm compliant with HB0740 as written?

I'm only getting more confused but that would be nice if the case

EDIT: Damn, I don't think it would, since as written you need to have it serialised by an FFL BEFORE 1986. This is insanity

No, the proposed law says if there is no serial number it must have been made in 1968 and before (PS, didn’t Rimfires mag a year or three after GCA1968 before they were required to be serilalized?).

If made after 1968 is must have been serialized by a licensed federal firearms manufacturer or importer.

Unless you are (and you’d know), it wouldn’t be legal under this law. I doubt an FFL-07 could legally serialize your 80% you built in to a firearm (as they are not the manufacturer). It would be a nifty side business though if it were okay with the ATF.

What’s your business? Serializing Firearms people home built? Sounds good to us!

Kicken Wing · Feb 19, 2019

rob-cubed said:
^^ You said it for me. If MSP really wanted to, they could audit who'd bought what legally based on dealer bound books.

Let's be realistic though: Annapolis doesn't intend to send—nor would MSP likely comply with—a door to door confiscation campaign. That would be really bad PR. The Democrats are more than happy to keep making things illegal knowing that the majority of legal gun owners won't willingly hand over their firearms, and will let the courts fight it out at the taxpayer's expense. The fact that they make law-abiding gun owners criminals overnight is just a bonus. What they are focused on is shutting down any possibility of a future sale and a slow erosion of gun culture by increasing restriction.

Slightly off topic from Muleskinners original post but tangent to this quote.... Could you imagine the bad PR that these politicians would receive if EVERY SINGLE AR-15 bought post 10/2013 were hunted down and confiscated by the "Authorities"? Let alone the arrests that would be made for non compliance? How many AR-15's do you think were purchased within that time frame in the state of MD? Now consider the amount of work it would take to get ALL of those weapons out of the hands of the citizens. I think that once everyone has a relative that got thrown in jail for being a felon for owning a once legally owned firearm that became illegal to own overnight would be a turning point for most. Is that what it would take for the general population to realize the magnitude of the pure idiocy of all of this gun grabbing ********? "Hey, so and so is my uncle and he is a good guy but he just got thrown in jail for umteen years for owning a batch of AR-15's that he legally purchased!" Let THAT shit circulate and see how many of those politicians get re-elected. Maybe that is what it will take to get the rest of the country to wake up? Even then, I would still have my doubts.

randomuser · Feb 20, 2019

Kicken Wing said:
Slightly off topic from Muleskinners original post but tangent to this quote.... Could you imagine the bad PR that these politicians would receive if EVERY SINGLE AR-15 bought post 10/2013 were hunted down and confiscated by the "Authorities"? Let alone the arrests that would be made for non compliance? How many AR-15's do you think were purchased within that time frame in the state of MD? Now consider the amount of work it would take to get ALL of those weapons out of the hands of the citizens. I think that once everyone has a relative that got thrown in jail for being a felon for owning a once legally owned firearm that became illegal to own overnight would be a turning point for most. Is that what it would take for the general population to realize the magnitude of the pure idiocy of all of this gun grabbing ********? "Hey, so and so is my uncle and he is a good guy but he just got thrown in jail for umteen years for owning a batch of AR-15's that he legally purchased!" Let THAT shit circulate and see how many of those politicians get re-elected. Maybe that is what it will take to get the rest of the country to wake up? Even then, I would still have my doubts.

why would 100k armed men allow 100 armed enforcers to imprison them for owning an inanimate object simply because a politician put ink on paper?

Allen65 · Feb 20, 2019

Kicken Wing said:
Slightly off topic from Muleskinners original post but tangent to this quote.... Could you imagine the bad PR that these politicians would receive if EVERY SINGLE AR-15 bought post 10/2013 were hunted down and confiscated by the "Authorities"? Let alone the arrests that would be made for non compliance? How many AR-15's do you think were purchased within that time frame in the state of MD? Now consider the amount of work it would take to get ALL of those weapons out of the hands of the citizens. I think that once everyone has a relative that got thrown in jail for being a felon for owning a once legally owned firearm that became illegal to own overnight would be a turning point for most. Is that what it would take for the general population to realize the magnitude of the pure idiocy of all of this gun grabbing ********? "Hey, so and so is my uncle and he is a good guy but he just got thrown in jail for umteen years for owning a batch of AR-15's that he legally purchased!" Let THAT shit circulate and see how many of those politicians get re-elected. Maybe that is what it will take to get the rest of the country to wake up? Even then, I would still have my doubts.

We still have big math problem. Republicans are outnumbered 2:1 in this state, and a significant number of GOP members aren't exactly big 2A supporters, either. Remember the votes on the ERPO law? It's not as if a large number of current HBAR owners are currently voting D and are going to change their votes over this issue.

We can lessen the impact of the bills in committee (grandfathering for example), and buy some time to work things through the courts. That's the most viable strategy for now. Maryland is never going to become Wyoming.

Allen65 · Feb 20, 2019

randomuser said:
why would 100k armed men allow 100 armed enforcers to imprison them for owning an inanimate object simply because a politician put ink on paper?

Because those 100 can call on backup and escalate well beyond anything the 100k can field. And, there's that whole rule of law thing, too. In this case, MD politicians are doing what they're doing because majorities of voters elected them. And that's why we have a Constitution and that pesky rule of law, to prevent majorities from becoming mobs trampling minorities.

lazarus · Feb 20, 2019

Kicken Wing said:
Slightly off topic from Muleskinners original post but tangent to this quote.... Could you imagine the bad PR that these politicians would receive if EVERY SINGLE AR-15 bought post 10/2013 were hunted down and confiscated by the "Authorities"? Let alone the arrests that would be made for non compliance? How many AR-15's do you think were purchased within that time frame in the state of MD? Now consider the amount of work it would take to get ALL of those weapons out of the hands of the citizens. I think that once everyone has a relative that got thrown in jail for being a felon for owning a once legally owned firearm that became illegal to own overnight would be a turning point for most. Is that what it would take for the general population to realize the magnitude of the pure idiocy of all of this gun grabbing ********? "Hey, so and so is my uncle and he is a good guy but he just got thrown in jail for umteen years for owning a batch of AR-15's that he legally purchased!" Let THAT shit circulate and see how many of those politicians get re-elected. Maybe that is what it will take to get the rest of the country to wake up? Even then, I would still have my doubts.

I'd be curious at the numbers. I also would rather not know, because if I did, that means someone knows too who shouldn't know.

I'd guess tens of thousands and maybe well over 100,000.

I think there are a lot of people who bought HBAR post 2013 in part because they suddenly realized they were banned and this was the only way to get in to an AR (well, only easy way) or just that fact that MSRs have continued to gain in popularity since the federal ban ended.

I didn't own guns prior to 10/1/2013 or else this would be outrageous, but more academic for me as I am sure I would have been one of the ones who snapped up half a dozen (or more) lowers before the ban hammer came down. Most times I am at IWLA and there are a few guns there, usually at least a couple of people have ARs. Usually half the ARs I see are heavy barreled. Which doesn't mean they are post 10/2013 ARs, but I bet most of them ar.

When I was there Sunday there were 4 guys who showed up as 2 groups shortly before I left. Between them they had I think 6 ARs. 1 was a non-HBAR.

If Maryland is anything like NY, you'd have about 20-30% compliance (if that, this isn't really a publicized bill, unlike what FSA2013 was or the NY SAFE act). So tens of thousands (or way more even) new criminals who haven't nor would likely do anything illegal with their rifles.

lazarus · Feb 20, 2019

Allen65 said:
We still have big math problem. Republicans are outnumbered 2:1 in this state, and a significant number of GOP members aren't exactly big 2A supporters, either. Remember the votes on the ERPO law? It's not as if a large number of current HBAR owners are currently voting D and are going to change their votes over this issue.

We can lessen the impact of the bills in committee (grandfathering for example), and buy some time to work things through the courts. That's the most viable strategy for now. Maryland is never going to become Wyoming.

I think the thing is that many 2A supports aren't universal "not one infringement" people. I know plenty of guys who are gun owners, republicans even who just don't care about some gun control laws. ERPO? Well that won't effect me and I don't want some crazy maniac owning guns. I've heard that refrain. My neighbor begrudgingly wrote a few emails over the HBAR bill because I twisted his arm in to it. He "doesn't really care for black rifles. I am still pissed they banned the M1a, because I really want one of those".

Guess what, we are all in this together. He thinks the LGQL bill is ridiculous, but he doesn't think it will pass and it sucks, but "I mean, I could live with it even though it is a lot more hoops to jump through". Again, I twisted his arm in to writing to his/our legislators about it.

There are a LOT of gun owners who fall in to that group.

randomuser · Feb 20, 2019

Allen65 said:
Because those 100 can call on backup and escalate well beyond anything the 100k can field. And, there's that whole rule of law thing, too. In this case, MD politicians are doing what they're doing because majorities of voters elected them. And that's why we have a Constitution and that pesky rule of law, to prevent majorities from becoming mobs trampling minorities.

"we have a Constitution"
Perhaps that message should go to the politicians who don't seem to know.

We are a republic as opposed to a democracy specifically so that we don't have the democratic mob law and instead have the rule of law. The problem is that the politicians are ignoring the constitution inch by inch and taking away our rights by enacting laws that are clearly infringements.

We have a second amendment so that they can't take away the second amendment (and any other they choose). Letting them infringe only allows other amendments to be taken away too.

I understand what you are saying when you say "Because those 100 can call on backup and escalate well beyond anything the 100k can field", but what about that "more patriots than handcuffs" thing I see around here. Do we truly have more patriots than handcuffs or is it only a bumper sticker?

Often times when 2 sides are strong enough to do damage to one another and they know it, both sides talk instead of fight. Bundy ranch would be a good example.

These infringements affect way more people than Bundy ranch. Am I wrong?

bobb10010x · Feb 20, 2019

In my humble opinion, the state in general, and specifically the State Police cannot even organize, control, or properly administer that information which they currently have access to. It is therefore ridiculous to even consider them mounting a confiscation scheme even if ordered to do so by the powers that be. The socialist imbeciles that author such legislation have not got a ****ing clue as to what would be involved in implementing such things......it is just a feel-good thing for them, but is also an effort to garner votes from the amazingly stupid liberal shitbags that live in this God-forsaken state that actually believe that restricting or banning inanimate objects would actually mitigate someone intent on committing criminal activities. To coin a phrase from Sam Elliott " they must be a real special kind of stupid".

Allen65 · Feb 20, 2019

bobb10010x said:
In my humble opinion, the state in general, and specifically the State Police cannot even organize, control, or properly administer that information which they currently have access to. It is therefore ridiculous to even consider them mounting a confiscation scheme even if ordered to do so by the powers that be. The socialist imbeciles that author such legislation have not got a ****ing clue as to what would be involved in implementing such things......it is just a feel-good thing for them, but is also an effort to garner votes from the amazingly stupid liberal shitbags that live in this God-forsaken state that actually believe that restricting or banning inanimate objects would actually mitigate someone intent on committing criminal activities. To coin a phrase from Sam Elliott " they must be a real special kind of stupid".

You're probably right. But firearms owners as a group tend to be some of the most obsessively law abiding folks I know. Most of us don't want to take the risk of playing the "criminal conviction lottery" and losing, regardless of the odds. And the anti legislators, activists, and the people who are buying them understand that risk calculus, and use it to our disadvantage.

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