MD firearms collector question

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  • j26sub

    Active Member
    May 8, 2018
    359
    I know this distinction will allow me to buy more than 1 in a month, but what about transport? What exactly are the benefits in relation to transport? Thanks!
     

    swinokur

    In a State of Bliss
    Patriot Picket
    Apr 15, 2009
    55,395
    Westminster USA
    None because no case law exists under the statute that would define what a “Bona Fide” collector is.

    IANAL


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     

    dblas

    Past President, MSI
    MDS Supporter
    Apr 6, 2011
    13,087
    An e-mail on the subject of the DC letter and transport from MSP

    MSP said:
    From: "Sgt. Jason Edwards (State Police)" <jason.edwards@maryland.gov>
    Date: November 2, 2017 at 3:58:47 PM EDT
    To: Me
    Subject: Re: MD Designated Collector Application

    As previously stated, the Designated Collector status is solely for individuals wishing to purchase more than one handgun in Maryland within a 30 day period. It is in no way related to exception set forth in Section 4-203(b)(5) of the Criminal Law Article. Section 4-203(b)(5) does not require that a person be designated as a collector by the Maryland State Police. In other words, an individual may transport handguns under the provisions of 4-203(b)(5) without having been designated as a collector by the Maryland State Police.


    Sergeant Jason Edwards
    Maryland State Police
    Licensing Division
    Firearms Registration Unit
    Operations Supervisor
    1111 Reisterstown Road
    Pikesville, Maryland 21208

    Office: 410-653-4508
    Fax: 410-653-4036
     

    Threeband

    The M1 Does My Talking
    MDS Supporter
    Dec 30, 2006
    25,234
    Carroll County
    An e-mail on the subject of the DC letter and transport from MSP

    Thank you for posting that!


    When will people STOP spreading this dangerous delusion that DC Status provides special transport privileges?


    And why the sudden flurry of people starting threads asking about DC Status?
     

    Threeband

    The M1 Does My Talking
    MDS Supporter
    Dec 30, 2006
    25,234
    Carroll County
    None because no case law exists under the statute that would define what a “Bona Fide” collector is.

    IANAL


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

    Bona Fide would have to be established by precedent. Your lawyer argues why you should be considered Bona Fide, the court agrees or disagrees.

    That is how EVERYTHING works- you make your argument, and you win or lose.

    Your argument could be anything, such as:

    == Holding a C&R FFL.

    --- Being signed up on the Gunboards forum

    --- Owning 3 Mosin Nagants

    --- Belonging to the Glock Collectors Association

    -- Being a Maryland Designated Collector

    -- Having a box full of old Guns and Ammo Magazines

    -- Your mother says you are a collector

    --You wrote a book about collecting antique Kentucky rifles

    -- You go to lots of gun shows.

    -- You go shooting sometimes

    -- You work as a museum curator, appraising and cataloging firearms.

    -- You watch lots of gun videos on You Tube.

    --- You have a high post count on MDS


    Your argument could be ANYTHING!
    That is how the law works!

    There are no right or wrong answers, only arguments. Some arguments are better than others. Sometimes stupid, weak arguments win. Sometimes really good arguments fail.

    If DC Status is your only argument when you get arrested for illegal handgun transport, you are going to wish you had a better argument.



    Personally, I always drive with a Labrador Retriever, so I can claim I'm going to a dog obedience class. Works every time. (Cops love dogs.)


    ------------------------------------------
     

    swinokur

    In a State of Bliss
    Patriot Picket
    Apr 15, 2009
    55,395
    Westminster USA
    Yep. Until the argument is made and a court decides, there is no definition. It might work if arrested.

    It might not.
     

    JohnnyE

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Jan 18, 2013
    9,467
    MoCo
    Bona Fide would have to be established by precedent. Your lawyer argues why you should be considered Bona Fide, the court agrees or disagrees.

    That is how EVERYTHING works- you make your argument, and you win or lose.

    Your argument could be anything, such as:

    == Holding a C&R FFL.

    --- Being signed up on the Gunboards forum

    --- Owning 3 Mosin Nagants

    --- Belonging to the Glock Collectors Association

    -- Being a Maryland Designated Collector

    -- Having a box full of old Guns and Ammo Magazines

    -- Your mother says you are a collector

    --You wrote a book about collecting antique Kentucky rifles

    -- You go to lots of gun shows.

    -- You go shooting sometimes

    -- You work as a museum curator, appraising and cataloging firearms.

    -- You watch lots of gun videos on You Tube.

    --- You have a high post count on MDS


    Your argument could be ANYTHING!
    That is how the law works!

    There are no right or wrong answers, only arguments. Some arguments are better than others. Sometimes stupid, weak arguments win. Sometimes really good arguments fail.

    If DC Status is your only argument when you get arrested for illegal handgun transport, you are going to wish you had a better argument.



    Personally, I always drive with a Labrador Retriever, so I can claim I'm going to a dog obedience class. Works every time. (Cops love dogs.)


    ------------------------------------------

    Yep. Until the argument is made and a court decides, there is no definition. It might work if arrested.

    It might not.
    I absolutely understand that, until this is addressed in court, the definition is not settled. I would, as a part of that discussion, refer to my now ten year old DC letter, and use it to make a points. This is the text of my DC letter:

    Dear JohnnyE:

    This letter is to inform you that your request to be a "Designated Collector" has been APPROVED. This information has been entered in our system and will exempt you from the purchase of one regulated firearm in a 30-day period. In addition, you will no longer be required to complete the Application for Multiple Purchase of Regulated Firearms (MSP form 77M).

    However, any resale or transfer of any regulated firearms in your collection must be completed by a licensed regulated firearms dealer or in compliance with the secondary sales law as defined in Title 5, Section 124, Public Safety Article.

    If you have any further questions you may contact Cpt. M. Cusimano via email mcusimano@mdsp.org.

    Sincerely,

    /s/

    By the text of the letter, it appears that MD has acknowledged my status as a collector. If their argument in a handgun transport case includes challenging my status as a bona fide collector, they would of necessity have to argue against their own letter.

    Yes, court is expensive and risky, and hanging your hat on a single argument is not wise, but I am curious how the state's letter to me acknowledging my status as a collector undercuts their subsequent argument against that status.
     

    Pinecone

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Feb 4, 2013
    28,175
    NO, you are a "Designated Collector." Not the same thing as saying they recognize you as an actual collector.

    You really want to go to court with that letter and one handgun in your "collection" and claim you are a bona fide collector (look up the definition of bona fide).

    Your money and your life. Go for it.
     

    Threeband

    The M1 Does My Talking
    MDS Supporter
    Dec 30, 2006
    25,234
    Carroll County
    It can be part of your argument, but why not add a few other things? A Federal Firearms License, 03 Collector of Curios and Relics is going to be worth 10, no, 100 of those stupid DC letters. Why not join the Glock Collector's Organization, or the Garand Collectors Association also?

    If you claim to be a "Bona Fide Collector", and all you have is a ten year old letter, it's going to look weak.

    Tell the court about your collecting activity. What is your area of collecting interest?

    The defendant is charged with illegally transporting a 9mm Glock Model 19 semi automatic pistol equipped with high capacity assault clip bullet magazines. The defendant claims to be a Bona Fide Collector transporting part of his collection to a private exhibition. Please explain to the court what makes this particular Glock semi automatic pistol uniquely worthy of collector interest. Describe the nature of this "private exhibition." Is this an organized meeting of Bona Fide Collectors?

    The State charges that the defendant is NOT a Bona Fide Collector, but rather a scofflaw, deliberately trying to game the system by attempting to manipulate an apparent loophole in the transport law. The defendant is thus exactly the person the law was written to address: a dangerous loose cannon with a misguided, twisted desire to routinely drive around with a deadly semi automatic handgun, for no other reason than to be prepared to deal with other drivers who may anger him.

    Suppose your mother or your daughter were to anger this loose cannon, by driving too slowly, or failing to use a turn signal? Would he reach for his Glock to teach her a lesson?

    What other reason does he have for illegally transporting this semi automatic high capacity military grade assault weapon? He has no excuse other than an obvious fabrication and a ten year old letter from the State Police.
     

    JohnnyE

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Jan 18, 2013
    9,467
    MoCo
    NO, you are a "Designated Collector." Not the same thing as saying they recognize you as an actual collector.

    You really want to go to court with that letter and one handgun in your "collection" and claim you are a bona fide collector (look up the definition of bona fide).

    Your money and your life. Go for it.

    It can be part of your argument, but why not add a few other things? A Federal Firearms License, 03 Collector of Curios and Relics is going to be worth 10, no, 100 of those stupid DC letters. Why not join the Glock Collector's Organization, or the Garand Collectors Association also?

    If you claim to be a "Bona Fide Collector", and all you have is a ten year old letter, it's going to look weak.

    Tell the court about your collecting activity. What is your area of collecting interest?

    The defendant is charged with illegally transporting a 9mm Glock Model 19 semi automatic pistol equipped with high capacity assault clip bullet magazines. The defendant claims to be a Bona Fide Collector transporting part of his collection to a private exhibition. Please explain to the court what makes this particular Glock semi automatic pistol uniquely worthy of collector interest. Describe the nature of this "private exhibition." Is this an organized meeting of Bona Fide Collectors?

    The State charges that the defendant is NOT a Bona Fide Collector, but rather a scofflaw, deliberately trying to game the system by attempting to manipulate an apparent loophole in the transport law. The defendant is thus exactly the person the law was written to address: a dangerous loose cannon with a misguided, twisted desire to routinely drive around with a deadly semi automatic handgun, for no other reason than to be prepared to deal with other drivers who may anger him.

    Suppose your mother or your daughter were to anger this loose cannon, by driving too slowly, or failing to use a turn signal? Would he reach for his Glock to teach her a lesson?

    What other reason does he have for illegally transporting this semi automatic high capacity military grade assault weapon? He has no excuse other than an obvious fabrication and a ten year old letter from the State Police.
    Let's not over-state my argument. Also let's not turn two issues into one.

    First issue: I state that a letter from MD acknowledging my status as a collector contradicts their argument at trial that I am not a collector. Are those positions consistent, or inconsistent?

    I say INCONSISTENT.

    Next issue: What is that inconsistency worth? Likely not much. I just point it out. Call out the inconsistency at trial. Have other, stronger arguments. This would only be a single brick in the wall I would like to build between myself and the pokey.

    Oh yes, I know, just by playing (at trial) I lose.
     

    Threeband

    The M1 Does My Talking
    MDS Supporter
    Dec 30, 2006
    25,234
    Carroll County
    Obviously you got that letter under false pretenses, by lying about collecting activity you simply can't describe or document. If you were a Bona Fide Collector, you would have more compelling demonstrations, such as an 03 FFL or a stack of old Guns and Ammo magazines.

    All that letter demonstrates is that you have been consistently trying to manipulate loopholes and game the system for ten years or more.

    Tell us why you were transporting this deadly semi automatic assault machine pistol. What possible reason did you have for roaming the highways or our lovely State with this tool of death?

    Were you going to target practice? Obviously not: you never tried to claim you were.
    Were you taking the weapon of mass destruction to a gunsmith? No, or you would have said you were.
    Were you transporting this baby-killing machine pistol to a training class? No. You made no such claim.
    Were you going to a dog obedience class? You would have had a Labrador Retriever with you in that case, and the officer would have sent you and your lovable puppy on your way with a wave and a smile.

    No, obviously you were up to no good. Obviously you were roaming the highways with murderous intent, no doubt hoping the daughter of one of these jurors would give you an excuse to teach her a lesson.

    If you had a legitimate, peaceable reason to transport this Murder Weapon, you would have said so. But having no excuse, you attempt to manipulate the peace loving members of this court with your ridiculous claim that a Glock pistol can possibly be of interest to a Bona Fide collector.

    Your honor, I move for summary execution...
     

    swinokur

    In a State of Bliss
    Patriot Picket
    Apr 15, 2009
    55,395
    Westminster USA
    I think part of the argument will center of the difference between "Designated Collector" in the MSP letter and the term "Bona Fide Collector"in the statute.

    Are they the same? Different? What does the statute say about Designated?

    In the statute, with no definition of Bona Fide, does the MSP have the authority to designate "Collector" under the statute?

    I have no idea.
     

    dblas

    Past President, MSI
    MDS Supporter
    Apr 6, 2011
    13,087
    Thank you for posting that!


    When will people STOP spreading this dangerous delusion that DC Status provides special transport privileges?


    And why the sudden flurry of people starting threads asking about DC Status?

    You're quite welcome, I join you in the frustration of the mis-information.
     

    Pinecone

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Feb 4, 2013
    28,175
    First issue: I state that a letter from MD acknowledging my status as a collector contradicts their argument at trial that I am not a collector. Are those positions consistent, or inconsistent?

    Notice the letter even puts quotes around "Designated Collector."

    It does not say you are actually a collector.

    But that you are designated one under the law that says that having such designation allows you to buy more than one handgun per 30 days.

    That and ONLY that.

    And you are looking for consistency in MD??? REALLY??????? How many hours (can even be days) have you lived here????

    Remember, according to this state an SBR is both a pistol and a rifle. At the same time.
     

    swinokur

    In a State of Bliss
    Patriot Picket
    Apr 15, 2009
    55,395
    Westminster USA
    Yep you are designated for purposes of more than one handgun a month.

    Whether that also makes you BONA FIDE as far as 4-203 (b) 5 has yet to be decided
     

    Threeband

    The M1 Does My Talking
    MDS Supporter
    Dec 30, 2006
    25,234
    Carroll County
    I think part of the argument will center of the difference between "Designated Collector" in the MSP letter and the term "Bona Fide Collector"in the statute.

    ...

    Actually, I think the prosecutor would focus the argument on the claim that the defendant was trying to game the system by acting in Bad Faith.

    There was no exhibition, the gun has no collector value, the defendant was not acting in Good Faith (Bona Fide), but in Bad Faith.
     

    Bob A

    όυ φροντισ
    MDS Supporter
    Patriot Picket
    Nov 11, 2009
    30,691
    "Bona fide" collector means you identify as a collector, in good faith. The State of Maryland has honored your self-description with a letter designating you as a collector, after having verified that you meet their requirements for owning a firearm. So they are also acting in good faith with their determination of your bona fides.

    For thirty extra dollars and the price of a stamp, the federal government will, after examining your records, issue you a Federal Firearms license, for the express purpose of your furthering your ability to develop your collection through interstate commerce. The full faith and credit of the almighty US Government is behind you in this endeavor.

    After some expenditures you will have a collection, of sorts.

    Glocks are not yet 50 years old, nor are they listed in the BATFE C&R lists. However, transporting one or more firearms that would fall into the C&R category ought to acceptable to the court. (It might take some time and money to bring the argument to the court that would find it acceptable, of course.)

    It's difficult to see how your status as a "collector" could be questioned, in light of the above.
     

    Threeband

    The M1 Does My Talking
    MDS Supporter
    Dec 30, 2006
    25,234
    Carroll County
    I think a prosecutor could make a strong argument that you were not acting in Good Faith, but rather in Bad Faith. The law was written to prevent people from bearing arms, that is, routinely driving around with a handgun "just because."

    Everything about this "My Designated Collector letter is actually a Licence to Routinely Drive Around with a Handgun Just Because" reeks of Bad Faith, gaming the system, and trying to work loopholes. You are obviously trying to twist a simple exemption from "one gun a month" into something it was absolutely never intended to be, in the process committing the very act which the law was intended to criminalize.

    Why?

    Why are you transporting the handgun? Are you stopping by the range after work? Then you are legally transporting for target practice. The law says nothing about direct travel, no stops, or such ********, so why are you bullshitting the court with this obvious Bad Faith attempt to game the system?

    What annoys me is the "wink, wink, nudge nudge Private Exhibition...yeah, that's it...uh...Private Exhibit of my Valuable Collection...ha ha wink wink nudge nudge." If that annoys me, then I suspect it is really going to piss off the Court.


    Do you really think you can show that stupid letter to the cop on the side of the road, and he's going to apologize and give you your gun back? Do you really think that's how it will work?


    ------------------
     

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