Encounter at the AGC Pistol Range

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  • This was simply a request for a cold range at 3:30. I could not have said it better than squaregrouper. As for "semantics" it sounds to me as though it was mishandled and mis-communicated all around. "cease fire" should never be used to bully someone into a request for a cold range.

    .

    Go back and re-read Post #1. You seem to be the only one in this thread who misread it. Actually, I will make it easy for you...
    .
    "Like normal, at 3:30, I called cease-fire when I heard the RSO on the speakers at the rifle range, everybody passed the call down the line, and every shooter responded accordingly... except this dude."

    This was not a request for a cold range. It was a command.
     

    webb297

    Ultimate Member
    Dec 29, 2010
    2,800
    Bowie
    This was simply a request for a cold range at 3:30. I could not have said it better than squaregrouper. As for "semantics" it sounds to me as though it was mishandled and mis-communicated all around. "cease fire" should never be used to bully someone into a request for a cold range.



    This is why we have RSOs, and should have them when there are a lot of people. When you get any large group of people together, they disagree on the timing of the cold range. People simply should not be electing themselves RSO.

    Whereas some people here see one problem, I see three. People should agree to a reasonable cold range request, but people should also not get impatient and elect themselves RSO.

    You remind me of the guys that think because they think that a law is unconstitutional, they can just ignore it and everything will be just fine.

    If you want the above statement to be true, start your own range and make it the rule, or get them to change the rules at the range you are shooting at.

    The FACT is that a Cease Fire command was given, and the reason does not matter, nor does your (or their) interpretation of the reason.

    When a cease fire is called, you stop firing, and make all of your firearms safe. Full Stop.

    Now if you think the OP should have called for a Cold Range, and not a cease fire, there could be a discussion to be had, but there is no discussion as to what a "Cease Fire" command means.
     

    Jake4U

    Now with 67% more FJB
    Sep 1, 2018
    1,150
    Unfortunately I have seen both sides of this story at AGC. People dont agree to reasonable range requests, and people who elect themselves RSO and think that their own schedule is the most important.

    If you dont want to be around any of these people, myself included, dont go to a public range.

    It's not a public range.
     

    Uncle Duke

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Feb 2, 2013
    11,667
    Not Far Enough from the City
    This was simply a request for a cold range at 3:30. I could not have said it better than squaregrouper. As for "semantics" it sounds to me as though it was mishandled and mis-communicated all around. "cease fire" should never be used to bully someone into a request for a cold range.



    This is why we have RSOs, and should have them when there are a lot of people. When you get any large group of people together, they disagree on the timing of the cold range. People simply should not be electing themselves RSO.

    Whereas some people here see one problem, I see three. People should agree to a reasonable cold range request, but people should also not get impatient and elect themselves RSO.

    Dan, in the absence of an RSO, somebody absolutely NEEDS to take control of that firing line!

    Now if they're doing things incorrectly, or if there's disagreement about who that somebody is ultimately going to be, then we find an RSO to set things straight. In the meantime, we look cooperatively at the big picture. The one that says that while there are indeed 3 sides to every story, there's only one side of dead. And it's in everyone's interest, first and foremost, to avoid dead.
     

    whistlersmother

    Peace through strength
    Jan 29, 2013
    8,948
    Fulton, MD
    This was simply a request for a cold range at 3:30. I could not have said it better than squaregrouper. As for "semantics" it sounds to me as though it was mishandled and mis-communicated all around. "cease fire" should never be used to bully someone into a request for a cold range.



    This is why we have RSOs, and should have them when there are a lot of people. When you get any large group of people together, they disagree on the timing of the cold range. People simply should not be electing themselves RSO.

    Whereas some people here see one problem, I see three. People should agree to a reasonable cold range request, but people should also not get impatient and elect themselves RSO.

    What's the difference between an RSO calling "cease fire" versus some random member calling "cease fire"?

    The rules, the last time I reviewed them, were very specific as to the actions to take when "cease fire" is called.
     

    danb

    dont be a dumbass
    Feb 24, 2013
    22,704
    google is your friend, I am not.
    Dan, in the absence of an RSO, somebody absolutely NEEDS to take control of that firing line!

    Now if they're doing things incorrectly, or if there's disagreement about who that somebody is ultimately going to be, then we find an RSO to set things straight. In the meantime, we look cooperatively at the big picture. The one that says that while there are indeed 3 sides to every story, there's only one side of dead. And it's in everyone's interest, first and foremost, to avoid dead.

    Yes. I 100% agree with this. This is exactly my point.
     

    Overwatch326

    Active Member
    Aug 13, 2016
    365
    "There was no RSO" seems to me to be the operative problem.

    When there is no RSO the ranges at AGC are "self regulating" - "self regulating" means just that, there has to be a common understanding / agreement to call cease fire among everyone. There was no cease fire "command" here. No one really has the authority to "call" a cease fire when the range is self regulating, it's more like a polite request. People can say no ("let me finish this mag" etc.). It happens. The response "you can wait" seems to me it was interpreted as a not-so-polite request. Or more like "you don't really have the authority to boss me"

    Did someone make the OP the RSO or give them authority? No. Some people declined the request for a cease fire. It happens.

    Its not unusual for the pistol range to be self regulating, but its also not unusual when there is a single RSO for people to wait until the RSO comes over from the rifle range to call cease fire after they finish there.

    This experience is exactly why I wait for the orange hat to call cease fire when there is a lot of people, rather than take over. I would have gone to get the RSO to call cease fire myself.

    My feeling is that no rules were broken here, just a disagreement who was really in charge. The answer is, no one really, which is the problem.

    Okay, so I thought I covered this in the post, but maybe it wasn't clear: I'm not a RSO, wasn't trying to act as one, and the Pistol Range typically doesn't have one present unless there's a match, from my understanding. I was just the closest guy to the rifle range.

    What we were doing was just treating the Pistol Range as an extension of the Rifle Range, and calling "Cease fire" down the line when the RSO on the loudspeaker at the Rifle Range did. I wasn't trying to boss anyone around; we were just operating on the half-hour, just like you would at the Rifle Range under supervision, so that way it wasn't just some dude deciding he was in charge. The speakers next door are pretty dang loud, so it's fairly easy to hear, even at the opposite end of the pistol range; though honestly, I didn't get that good a look at the guy's headset, so I can't say if he had one with microphones built in like mine. Maybe he really just didn't hear the RSO, but to then ignore everyone else who did...?

    I get what you mean about there being a difference between it being an order and a consensus, but at the same time, the regs say that any time someone calls it, even as a request, you're to cease fire. And like I said, it's not like we were doing it every 10 minutes or anything.

    On the pistol range I usually get a consensus to a ceasefire in a few minutes. I’ve been on the range when people need them every 10-15 minutes or once every couple hours. It really depends who your shooting with.

    As for the other persons attitude I always recommend in my safety walkthrough you add the RSO number into your phone. You can use this to report an unsafe person, suspicious person on the range, incident etc.

    Range Officer:
    +1 (410) 461-8532

    This is what we were doing, yeah. In hindsight, we probably should've checked in with everybody as they walked on.

    There is a difference, in most cases on most ranges(not a member of AGC), between a "cease fire" call and a "cold range" request.

    Requesting the range to go cold is not the same as a cease fire call. When someone yells/says/demands a cease fire, it is not a request. The fact that the call was repeated down the line solidifies that.

    Go back and re-read Post #1. You seem to be the only one in this thread who misread it. Actually, I will make it easy for you...
    .
    "Like normal, at 3:30, I called cease-fire when I heard the RSO on the speakers at the rifle range, everybody passed the call down the line, and every shooter responded accordingly... except this dude."

    This was not a request for a cold range. It was a command.

    You remind me of the guys that think because they think that a law is unconstitutional, they can just ignore it and everything will be just fine.

    If you want the above statement to be true, start your own range and make it the rule, or get them to change the rules at the range you are shooting at.

    The FACT is that a Cease Fire command was given, and the reason does not matter, nor does your (or their) interpretation of the reason.

    When a cease fire is called, you stop firing, and make all of your firearms safe. Full Stop.

    Now if you think the OP should have called for a Cold Range, and not a cease fire, there could be a discussion to be had, but there is no discussion as to what a "Cease Fire" command means.

    Okay, so it's sounding like maybe there was a problem with us calling "Cease Fire" as opposed to "Cold Range". To clarify: RSO next door would call Cease Fire, I'd turn to the next guy down from us and call over "Hey, it's 3:30, RSO just called Cease Fire," and then he'd call "Cease Fire", and pass it down from there.

    Once everyone confirmed and cleared their weapon and stepped off the pad, the far end would call and we'd give a thumbs up and repeat it all the way up the line from there, finally with everyone repeating "Range is Cold". Then after we reset targets, visually confirmed everyone was behind the line, we'd repeat until each group confirmed, and one of the guys at the opposite end would call "Range is Hot". So, was this just a problem with terminology? 'Cause we were literally just repeating the call from the range next door, and then calling Cold/Hot once everyone confirmed they were set.

    And don't get me wrong: I'm not trying to defend myself, here. If I shouldn't have been calling "Cease Fire", then I was out of line. Like I said, I'm still fairly new (joined end of 2018/start of 2019, but work and C19 mean I don't get to the range super often), and I just wanna know what I should do the next time.
     

    Jake4U

    Now with 67% more FJB
    Sep 1, 2018
    1,150
    Dan,

    Next time you're at AGC ask Jim what he would do if the entire 50 yd line called Cease Fire, but you continued shooting - even after approached directly by a member and were told Cease Fire. He would pull your badge. He wouldn't discuss differences of opinion. He wouldn't argue the point. He'd just take your badge. And once your badge is pulled it is up to the leadership of AGC to return it assuming your club is willing to make the case and ask for you to be reinstated. You can't directly approach AGC to appeal, your club must do that for you.

    Again with the obvious point: AGC doesn't screw around with differences of opinion on called Cease Fires. You're welcome to have an alternate interpretation, but it won't change the outcome.
     

    teratos

    My hair is amazing
    MDS Supporter
    Patriot Picket
    Jan 22, 2009
    59,775
    Bel Air
    This is why we have RSOs, and should have them when there are a lot of people. When you get any large group of people together, they disagree on the timing of the cold range. People simply should not be electing themselves RSO.

    Whereas some people here see one problem, I see three. People should agree to a reasonable cold range request, but people should also not get impatient and elect themselves RSO.

    You are, in theory, a grown man. There are few activities that can become more dangerous than shooting quick, fast, and in a hurry. When someone calls for a cease fire at a shooting range, the mature and responsible thing to do is to put your f*cking gun down and find out why. It's shooting etiquette. People who don't follow it should be shunned.
     

    erwos

    The Hebrew Hammer
    MDS Supporter
    Mar 25, 2009
    13,866
    Rockville, MD
    If someone called cease fire, that's a hard stop, and you should have gotten an RSO involved.

    If someone called for a cold range, that's a different story. But, just my opinion, the polite thing to do is just put unload and go cold. At 3:30PM, you've still got a solid hour of daylight left. I can't even imagine being enough of a jerk to just ignore someone else trying to go cold for a target reset.
     

    SkiPatrolDude

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Oct 24, 2017
    3,332
    Timonium-Lutherville
    If you want to debate the appropriateness or authority of a particular "cease-fire" incident, fine, but do it after the fact.

    If you hear cease-fire, it doesn't matter if it's an 8 year old standing 3 lanes over. Once you hear it, you comply immediately. End of story. I've been a half trigger pull away from squeezing off a shot and stood down after hearing a cease-fire - it's just what you do. When a cease fire is called you do not have the time to evaluate what's going on. I've even heard a story of a hiker wandering straight onto a range one time, resulting in an urgent cease fire.

    If after the fact there is a good reason to suggest it should not have been a cease-fire, then a debate with the RSO/ who ever is in charge is needed.
     

    Alan3413

    Ultimate Member
    Mar 4, 2013
    16,929
    "There was no RSO" seems to me to be the operative problem.

    When there is no RSO the ranges at AGC are "self regulating" - "self regulating" means just that, there has to be a common understanding / agreement to call cease fire among everyone. There was no cease fire "command" here. No one really has the authority to "call" a cease fire when the range is self regulating, it's more like a polite request. People can say no ("let me finish this mag" etc.). It happens. The response "you can wait" seems to me it was interpreted as a not-so-polite request. Or more like "you don't really have the authority to boss me"

    Did someone make the OP the RSO or give them authority? No. Some people declined the request for a cease fire. It happens.

    Its not unusual for the pistol range to be self regulating, but its also not unusual when there is a single RSO for people to wait until the RSO comes over from the rifle range to call cease fire after they finish there.

    This experience is exactly why I wait for the orange hat to call cease fire when there is a lot of people, rather than take over. I would have gone to get the RSO to call cease fire myself.

    My feeling is that no rules were broken here, just a disagreement who was really in charge. The answer is, no one really, which is the problem.

    No, it could be an emergency. If somebody calls out cease fire, you stop first and ask questions later.
     

    Overwatch326

    Active Member
    Aug 13, 2016
    365
    You are now making up facts to suit your narrative.

    OP decided it was 3:30 and time for a cease fire to go home. "everybody was being pretty good about timing cease-fires on the half-hour" except this time.

    Someone wanted a few more minutes, someone got impatient, someone got passive aggressive, and an internet post was born.

    I hope you are not suggesting I have have to honor someones request to call cease fire every five minutes to change their target, that is not really a rule. Heck I shoot steel so I never have to change my target, all you paper punchers are so annoying, lol.

    Just calll the RSO, lol.

    Basically I am saying that "Karen" and "Dick" got into a disagreement about when to call a cease fire. That happens all the time and that is why we have RSOs. Its a public range, Karen and Dick are bound to meet and disagree. Dont be a Karen or a Dick, get an RSO.

    You said it yourself: Requesting the range to go cold is not the same as a cease fire call. The couple at the end knew it was just a request.

    This was simply a request for a cold range at 3:30. I could not have said it better than squaregrouper. As for "semantics" it sounds to me as though it was mishandled and mis-communicated all around. "cease fire" should never be used to bully someone into a request for a cold range.

    This is why we have RSOs, and should have them when there are a lot of people. When you get any large group of people together, they disagree on the timing of the cold range. People simply should not be electing themselves RSO.

    Whereas some people here see one problem, I see three. People should agree to a reasonable cold range request, but people should also not get impatient and elect themselves RSO.

    Looks an awful lot like you're "making up facts to suit your narrative". Unless you were there and know the couple personally... Were you the guy in that equation? :sad20:

    But you're right on one point, probably should have just called a RSO and not done anything. Dude's got every right to just ignore everyone else who isn't a RSO, right? :sad20:

    You are now making up facts to suit your narrative.

    OP decided it was 3:30 and time for a cease fire to go home. "everybody was being pretty good about timing cease-fires on the half-hour" except this time.

    Someone wanted a few more minutes, someone got impatient, someone got passive aggressive, and an internet post was born.

    I hope you are not suggesting I have have to honor someones request to call cease fire every five minutes to change their target, that is not really a rule. Heck I shoot steel so I never have to change my target, all you paper punchers are so annoying, lol.

    Just calll the RSO, lol.

    Unfortunately I have seen both sides of this story at AGC. People dont agree to reasonable range requests, and people who elect themselves RSO and think that their own schedule is the most important.

    If you dont want to be around any of these people, myself included, dont go to a public range.

    It's not a public range, and frankly it sounds like you've got some beef with the AGC, so you're using this thread to vent that; aren't you one of the ones that was raging at the AGC Forum mods for closing down during the lockdown, despite you proudly proclaiming you don't shoot there?

    I said I wasn't gonna get defensive about this, but it's shitposting like yours that makes me regret actually trying to ask for advice and help.
     
    Okay, so I thought I covered this in the post, but maybe it wasn't clear:

    GBender- What you did was correct, given that the majority of the line was in agreement to go cold at the top and bottom of the hour. Please ignore the one poster in this thread (who isn't an AGC member) telling you otherwise.
    Proper etiquette is for a casual request to make the range cold. This is where you will usually hear "Let me shoot the last 2 rounds in my mag" or "Give me a minute", etc. Once everyone, or most everyone, unloads and makes safe, it is proper to give the last guy or gal another minute or two to make safe.
    "CEASE FIRE" is then audibly called and is an order, not a request. Someone ignoring a cease fire order should be permanently kicked out of the club.
    There are several of us in this thread who teach AGC new member walk throughs and a couple RSO's posting as well.
     

    THier

    R.I.P.
    MDS Supporter
    Dec 3, 2010
    4,998
    Muscleville
    "Cease fire" means NOW, IMMEDIATELY! It could be to replace targets, but it could be for a severe safety reason someone saw that someone else may have missed.

    REPORT TO RSO!!
     
    If someone called cease fire, that's a hard stop, and you should have gotten an RSO involved.

    If someone called for a cold range, that's a different story. But, just my opinion, the polite thing to do is just put unload and go cold. At 3:30PM, you've still got a solid hour of daylight left. I can't even imagine being enough of a jerk to just ignore someone else trying to go cold for a target reset.

    Short and succinct.
    /thread
     

    danb

    dont be a dumbass
    Feb 24, 2013
    22,704
    google is your friend, I am not.
    No, it could be an emergency. If somebody calls out cease fire, you stop first and ask questions later.

    It "could be" a lot of things, but it wasn't. It was a request for a cold range at 3:30 because people wanted to go home, and other people wanted to set up. Thats all. Followed by a bad review on the internet days later, and an RSO was never even involved. I do realize everything is a world-ending badge pulling safety violation on the internet, but I usually wait for the body cam footage at least.
     

    Jake4U

    Now with 67% more FJB
    Sep 1, 2018
    1,150
    GBender,

    You asked some great questions and, other than an outlier response, the input seems to be, "Yes, the guy at the range was seriously in the wrong" and "Next time get an RSO involved because the shooter was unsafe on that range."

    Enjoy your next visit to AGC and thanks for your investment in safety.
     

    Jake4U

    Now with 67% more FJB
    Sep 1, 2018
    1,150
    It "could be" a lot of things, but it wasn't. It was a request for a cold range at 3:30 because people wanted to go home, and other people wanted to set up. Thats all. Followed by a bad review on the internet days later, and an RSO was never even involved. I do realize everything is a world-ending badge pulling safety violation on the internet, but I usually wait for the body cam footage at least.

    Are you a badge carrying member of AGC? What associated club holds your membership? Next time I'm at the range I'll have a chat with Jim about this incident and mention your responses. It would be good for our RSOs to keep an eye out for obviously unsafe shooters at the range as I'm beginning to suspect you are. If you are actually a member. Which I doubt.
     

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