Done with the 1911 experiment

sajidakh · Jan 27, 2019

Got a Dan Wesson Specialist 9mm a couple months ago and have ran a couple thousand rounds through it. I love how accurate the gun is and how it makes me look like a better shooter than I am, but alas the tradeoff is not worth it.

It worked pretty well in sandy/dry environments (Wilson combat mags) and at indoor ranges without any failures after break in.

But once it got introduced to a little bit of mud it shit the bed completely. Failure to lockback, eject, go into battery, drop mags freely killed the gun for me.

It's not like I abused the gun or torture tested it but after a clean and fresh lube, once the mags hit mud and were wiped down as best as possible including a "nail nicking" of the follower, before reinserting into the gun, it eventually started experiencing failures especially on reloads.

That and the 11 lb Wilson Combat Chrome Silicon recoil spring worked 50% of the time when attempting to chamber a round from slide lock, requiring me to hand rack to ensure a round got stripped from the mag and into the chamber. If I use any heavier of a recoil spring the slide will be unreliable to lockback using training FMJs.

To keep this in perspective my Glock 19x experienced one failure to fire in these same conditions today but ran like a champ the rest of the day.

It may work for others but under relative hard use a quality 1911 was a failure.

Rob R. · Jan 27, 2019

Have been considering a Dan Wesson TCP but at $1300 I better love it and it better run reliably. Otherwise that’s 3, almost 4 quality plastic fantastic handguns I’d rather have on my buy list.

bitterkenny · Jan 27, 2019

I feel your frustrations, dude. I think I've been spoiled by the reliability and low maintenance of Glocks.

clandestine · Jan 28, 2019

You will be hard pressed to find someone that is critical of 1911's as I am, but has the gun been looked at by a pro?

I heard this complaint from many customers more times than I can count. Having a tight slide fit, swapping springs, and dealing with handloads is not a recipe for success when setting up a combat 1911.

FYI Wilson mags are not great either.

Magnumite · Jan 28, 2019

My experience with Wilson mags is similar, they are not as infallible as one is led to believe. My biggest pet peave with them are the soft springs to get an extra round in them. But that is a trait with many ‘one extra round’ 1911 mags. Newer generation mags are equpped with good stiff springs...much better.

Sand and torture tests have been done between semi custom tight 1911’s and Glocks. In a few of those the 1911 actually faired better than the Glock. Many times they faired about the same. I believe sand was always harshest on any gun.

Re: OP’s pistol. Colt used a 14 pound round recoil spring in their stock Government Model 9mm back in the day. Mostly for reliability. I am not sure if the OP’s recoil spring is round or flat. The aftermarket flat recoil springs are not garnering a very good reputation amoung the 1911 shooters. I won’t go into details but they are too soft, too short and many times Glock carry overs. Softer springing is typically one of several techniques used to get the gun to shoot flatter (in the hand). If you are going to be exposed to mud you need stiffer springs and it needs to be well lubed. It should be run wet anyway. Yours is a precision built stainless gun. Sounds like the mud may have contributed to galling. I would pull the slide off and look for galling on the rails. As clandestine said you may want to get it looked at by a pro. Trik shot on this forum is one such smith. He knows his way around a 1911.

DENWA · Jan 28, 2019

Magnumite is correct.

Sand is brutal on any firearm.

I think high dollar firearms end up sacrificing reliability for accuracy, No matter what brand.

Find a local smith that understands you.

Honestly I've had better success starting with low dollar 1911 and adding quality parts.

TheOriginalMexicanBob · Jan 28, 2019

Magazines...magazines...magazines. They're the first place to look when a self-loader has issues...especially a design as proven as the 1911 platform. After Operation Desert Storm I saw where Beretta was issuing a Desert Storm Commemorative M9 pistol commercially. One of the gun magazine writers asked if Beretta was going to supply Desert Storm Commemorative 3-round magazines as well as they malfunctioned in the sand after about three rounds were fired. The military investigated and found the contract magazines were the problem...they performed fine until the were used in the sand found in the Middle East.

I know some say reliability is the tradeoff when you want accuracy, but some custom gunsmiths will dispute that saying if the gun is properly an closely fitted, the dirt stays out. I don't quite support that theory as they're defending their business and good name...and most of their custom guns will never be used in such extreme circumstances.

sajidakh · Jan 28, 2019

clandestine said:
You will be hard pressed to find someone that is critical of 1911's as I am, but has the gun been looked at by a pro?

I heard this complaint from many customers more times than I can count. Having a tight slide fit, swapping springs, and dealing with handloads is not a recipe for success when setting up a combat 1911.

FYI Wilson mags are not great either.

Hi Clandestine. Thanks for posting. I initially sent this Dan Wesson back to the factory for inspection and was in close contact with the gunsmith there. He shot 50 rounds through it and cleaned up the trigger some, but otherwise said it was great and used a light oil, currently using Wilson's super light (red oil).

The DW comes standard with a 10 lb recoil spring and I would have some failures. I moved up to an 11 mainly just to get a chrome silicon spring (round not flat) but wanted a little more positive feeding as the slide seemed sluggish when stripping a round (still does with the 11 lb when using slide release).

The gun actually ran great both in a sterile indoor range and outside in a sandy environment. But once the magazines were exposed to granular bits of mud and in the rain. The gun was about 80% reliable and I'm sure it would have slowly gotten worse.

As for mags the DW supplied are trash and I tried metalform mags which have decent reviews. Both over insert causing stuck mags and catastrophic failures. I bought shit expensive Larry Vickers Duty Mags and had great success. Springs are thick and stiff and the over insertion problem went away with the aluminum baseplates.

sajidakh · Jan 28, 2019

TheOriginalMexicanBob said:
Magazines...magazines...magazines. They're the first place to look when a self-loader has issues...especially a design as proven as the 1911 platform. After Operation Desert Storm I saw where Beretta was issuing a Desert Storm Commemorative M9 pistol commercially. One of the gun magazine writers asked if Beretta was going to supply Desert Storm Commemorative 3-round magazines as well as they malfunctioned in the sand after about three rounds were fired. The military investigated and found the contract magazines were the problem...they performed fine until the were used in the sand found in the Middle East.

I know some say reliability is the tradeoff when you want accuracy, but some custom gunsmiths will dispute that saying if the gun is properly an closely fitted, the dirt stays out. I don't quite support that theory as they're defending their business and good name...and most of their custom guns will never be used in such extreme circumstances.

Can't keep the dirt out once it gets into the magazine.

Rockzilla · Jan 28, 2019

Magnumite said:
My experience with Wilson mags is similar, they are not as infallible as one is led to believe. My biggest pet peave with them are the soft springs to get an extra round in them. But that is a trait with many ‘one extra round’ 1911 mags. Newer generation mags are equpped with good stiff springs...much better.

Sand and torture tests have been done between semi custom tight 1911’s and Glocks. In a few of those the 1911 actually faired better than the Glock. Many times they faired about the same. I believe sand was always harshest on any gun.

Re: OP’s pistol. Colt used a 14 pound round recoil spring in their stock Government Model 9mm back in the day. Mostly for reliability. I am not sure if the OP’s recoil spring is round or flat. The aftermarket flat recoil springs are not garnering a very good reputation amoung the 1911 shooters. I won’t go into details but they are too soft, too short and many times Glock carry overs. Softer springing is typically one of several techniques used to get the gun to shoot flatter (in the hand). If you are going to be exposed to mud you need stiffer springs and it needs to be well lubed. It should be run wet anyway. Yours is a precision built stainless gun. Sounds like the mud may have contributed to galling. I would pull the slide off and look for galling on the rails. As clandestine said you may want to get it looked at by a pro. Trik shot on this forum is one such smith. He knows his way around a 1911.

^^ This...
Which do you want a gun that's got no rattle or slide side to side movement and punch
X's all day, or one you can use to make mud pies with, trust me I'm not gonna take the
pin gun, my old Pachmayr and throw it in the mud. Not trying to be smart but makes no
sense, got beat aound 1911's for other things, not a gunsmith but mud in tight fitting
parts is like taking a file to the rails and slide, in the day the AMT Hardballers liked only
one ammo, "ball ammo" nothing less, throw in Lead SWC H&G's, 185JHP, 200JHP, FTF's
slide not going far enuff back to pickup the next round, a few mods and all is fine. YMMV..
Having different springs helps...Wilson mags that's a whole nother story...

-Rock

sajidakh · Jan 28, 2019

Rockzilla said:
^^ This...
Which do you want a gun that's got no rattle or slide side to side movement and punch
X's all day, or one you can use to make mud pies with, trust me I'm not gonna take the
pin gun, my old Pachmayr and throw it in the mud. Not trying to be smart but makes no
sense, got beat aound 1911's for other things, not a gunsmith but mud in tight fitting
parts is like taking a file to the rails and slide, in the day the AMT Hardballers liked only
one ammo, "ball ammo" nothing less, throw in Lead SWC H&G's, 185JHP, 200JHP, FTF's
slide not going far enuff back to pickup the next round, a few mods and all is fine. YMMV..
Having different springs helps...Wilson mags that's a whole nother story...

-Rock

Like I was saying I didn't intentionally expose it to mud. Took a class in real awful, thunderstorm weather but many of the drills were on a pad under cover. But mags hitting the wet dirt was impossible to avoid. Tried cleaning the chunks of mud empty mags would gather as best I could throughout the class but sooner or later specs of wet dirt found their way into the mag, the magwell and then the gun. I would think WW1-2 1911s went under much more austere conditions but the 1911 persists to this day.

Overall I'm ditching the platform as much as I love shooting them.

steves1911 · Jan 28, 2019

Not trying to beat a dead horse as its been covered before but many super tight fitting match grade 1911s are more vulnerable to a dirty action then some of the "mid grade" guns you will encounter. Its not just 1911s either. Their is a fine line between tolerances tight enough for acceptale accuracy and so tight that minimal "grit" can lock it up tighter than a brick shit house. Ever seen a torture test of an RIA on you tube? Pretty impressive for a beater.

Huckleberry · Jan 28, 2019

1911s run the spectrum from a Sgt in a Mudhole to a LTC at Camp Perry.

A 1911 with some battle rattle in not going to be shooting out the 10 ring but it does have man size MOA at it’s effective combat range of 25 yards. The 1911 with battle rattle was the Glock of it’s day in the trenches and foxholes.

Now when you start tuning a 1911 for that LTC at Camp Perry, you know your trading off reliability for accuracy. Tighter the specs, the more finicky she gets

I have 1911s for field work and I have GC NM guns and there is no way in hell that I would carry a NM into battle much less drop it in the dirt and mud. The OP’s DW 1911 was closer to the LTC than a GI Spec for the Sgt

The Glock 17 like its’ Austrian cousin, the Steyr AUG, was designed for battle in the world’s the most demanding, dirty combat environments. You can dunk em’, bury ‘em, dig them up, give them a hose down and start shooting.

sajidakh · Jan 28, 2019

Also this was the first time I ran my 1911 with gloved hands. If none of you tried this before, especially those of you with hair triggers, I urge you to try. The lack of tactility in the trigger pull makes the light trigger a burden more than a blessing. But the familiarity of the glock trigger remained with or without gloves hands.

steves1911 · Jan 28, 2019

sajidakh said:
Also this was the first time I ran my 1911 with gloved hands. If none of you tried this before, especially those of you with hair triggers, I urge you to try. The lack of tactility in the trigger pull makes the light trigger a burden more than a blessing. But the familiarity of the glock trigger remained with or without gloves hands.

A 3lb trigger takes a lot of getting use to no matter the platform. Especially if what your use to is a 7lb pull on a striker fired platform. Its all about muscle memory and practice. People hunt with 2lb timneys in their bolt guns in sub zero temps with insulated gloves and still pull off cross the canyon shots with great accuracy. If the glock works better for you then so be it you arent alone in that camp I can assure you but trying to run a match gun in a combat role comes with its own problems.

sajidakh · Jan 28, 2019

steves1911 said:
A 3lb trigger takes a lot of getting use to no matter the platform. Especially if what your use to is a 7lb pull on a striker fired platform. Its all about muscle memory and practice. People hunt with 2lb timneys in their bolt guns in sub zero temps with insulated gloves and still pull off cross the canyon shots with great accuracy. If the glock works better for you then so be it you arent alone in that camp I can assure you but trying to run a match gun in a combat role comes with its own problems.

Def a learning experience for me. However, not 1 I'm willing to invest in.

photoracer · Jan 28, 2019

You can likely get away with dropping a GI 1911 in the dirt like an AK and it will shoot fine. Then again it won't hold a candle to a tight accurate gun when you absolutely need to put a hole in something. I shoot my Glocks in competition all the time and about 99% of the time they are reliable (I am lazy when it comes to cleaning). On the otherhand right now the only gun I carry is my Dan Wesson Bobtail Commander in 9mm. I have shot it in competition also using a mix of DW, CMC, and Metalform mags. Metalform because they are 10 rounders for competition, Chip McCormack because they seem to be the new reliability standard (at least in my clubs), and the factory DWs because they work and the only issue I have is sometimes when you drop a full mag the top round may pop out. I can live with that. I use Colt and CMC in my Colt Competition .45. As for triggers you can always run a 1911 faster than a striker fired trigger in the same calibers. In my Glocks I run the triggers so the reset is almost impossible to feel unless the rules don't allow it. I don't need to feel it as I have the trigger discipline to pull it just the amount I need to run it at max speed (since I am competing with others using STIs). I can still run an STI faster but I like the Glock. Most pros I know would carry a DW as personal carry before any other 1911. Since I only have one I just like the way it feels and the way it comes out of my IWB carry holster.
If I get a mag muddy I just stop using it. Until I get enough of them to make cleaning them a rare thing to do on a lousy weather day. Something that happens a lot at Peacemaker.

Magnumite · Jan 29, 2019

You can dunk em’, bury ‘em, dig them up, give them a hose down and start shooting.

That pretty much explains it. There are clearing drills for any firearm exposed to debris.

dist1646 · Jan 29, 2019

sajidakh said:
Also this was the first time I ran my 1911 with gloved hands. If none of you tried this before, especially those of you with hair triggers, I urge you to try. The lack of tactility in the trigger pull makes the light trigger a burden more than a blessing. But the familiarity of the glock trigger remained with or without gloves hands.

How in the world did you manage to get a gloved finger inside the trigger guard of a Glock? I can barely fit my trigger finger in there without touching the TG as is.

sajidakh · Jan 29, 2019

dist1646 said:
How in the world did you manage to get a gloved finger inside the trigger guard of a Glock? I can barely fit my trigger finger in there without touching the TG as is.

Skinny gloves?

Done with the 1911 experiment

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