How Well Did My .58 Cal Minie Balls Shoot?

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  • j8064

    Garrett Co Hooligan #1
    Feb 23, 2008
    11,635
    Deep Creek
    Most everyone on the forum knows for several months I've been figuring out shooting and developing accuracy with my new Pedersoli 1861 Springfield reproduction. It's a beautiful rifle. We've looked at it here: https://www.mdshooters.com/showthread.php?t=220392&highlight=Hooligan; and on other threads.

    I've already learned that loading techniques for consistent ignition; BP powder grind; brands of musket caps; diameter and purity of lead used for home cast boolits; and a lot of other factors come into play when developing accuracy for these fun assault rifles of the 19th century.

    With all that said, I'm hoping to focus this thread specifically on what my recovered Minie balls are telling us they did when fired. Our objective is to develop accuracy moving forward.

    ==========================================================

    Below are pics of Minies I recovered at the range's 100 yard berm today. They were fired a couple of weeks ago. The boolits were originally cast using "soft" lead in a Lee .575/500 mold. They were sized to .575; lubed with a 50/50 mixture of beeswax & Crisco; excess lube was cleared and they were fired by 60 grains of Goex FFG. All seemed to be the correct diameter for the rifle's bore when rammed home - tight, but not too tight.

    I do not have target pics from their firing. Suffice to say none of what we've fired could be called a "group" at this point. But we've seen no keyholes and all would have been bad news for a man-sized target at 50 yards.

    My first thoughts on the recovered slugs compared to an unfired example from the same batch are:

    • The standard Civil War load of 60 grains of BP produces plenty of power.
    • Compared to an unfired boolit, the skirts on the Minie's seem less expanded than I expected. Rifling is very shallow in a Springfielld's bore. But I don't see as much rifling on the skirts as I thought I would.
    • Would different (guaranteed pure) lead alloy and/or Lyman or RCBS molds produce thinner Minie skirts and therefore better accuracy?

    Learning to accurately load and shoot an 1861 Springfield has been on my To-Do list for umpteen years.

    I'm wide open to any and all input y'all can provide!

    What say you "Civil War Reenactors"?

    :shrug:

    Thanks in advance...

    :)
     

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    Ranchero50

    Ultimate Member
    Dec 15, 2012
    5,411
    Hagerstown MD
    It's interesting that most rounds from the battlefields during my youth came out undamaged and showed no ring land marks. Otherwise, nothing to add.
     

    BradMacc82

    Ultimate Member
    Industry Partner
    Aug 17, 2011
    26,177
    They were the ones dropped in the heat of battle. ;)

    I forget which site they were working, but they discovered a Minie with a clean impression of the poor fool that caught it with his front tooth (and likely the rest of his head). Aside from the lead dental impression, it was in remarkably good shape.
     

    John from MD

    American Patriot
    MDS Supporter
    May 12, 2005
    22,733
    Socialist State of Maryland
    I agree, your skirts are not opening up enough. If you are sure you have pure lead, I would try the following. 50-60 gns of 3 F or 70 gns of 2F. Standard Goex is not that powerfull and switching to 3f sometimes makes for the extra pressure needed. Your bullets look pretty good.
     

    j8064

    Garrett Co Hooligan #1
    Feb 23, 2008
    11,635
    Deep Creek
    I agree, your skirts are not opening up enough. If you are sure you have pure lead, I would try the following. 50-60 gns of 3 F or 70 gns of 2F. Standard Goex is not that powerfull and switching to 3f sometimes makes for the extra pressure needed. Your bullets look pretty good.

    Much appreciated. :thumbsup:

    I'm already experimenting with some fresh 3f Goex and hotter musket caps (RWS & Scheutzen). Finer powder definitely makes a difference in ignition consistency. Unfortunately I haven't recovered any of those boolits --- yet.

    I can't say the alloy I used is pure lead, but it's very soft. A next step is to get some pedigree pure lead and try that.

    For the metallic cartridge reloaders: After reloading and shooting smokeless and BP cartridges for 30+ years, unpatched Minie balls and BP are hugely different. What a great trip back to basic reloading this is!

    :)
     

    John from MD

    American Patriot
    MDS Supporter
    May 12, 2005
    22,733
    Socialist State of Maryland
    I agree with Melnick and BF44. Pure lead is best in front stuffers but it is hard to make these as you have to use high heat and it causes the lead to shrink producting the least diameter. A more workable solution is to add 1% tin to the mix. Tin will allow the mold to fill out properly at lower temps and keep the diameter where it is supposed to be. Tin doesn't add appreciable hardness to the soft lead.

    I no longer shoot rifles that use minie balls as I can't see the front sight anymore. Back in the day, Rapine made the best molds and most of the living history shooters I shot with used them. Lee doesn't make bad moulds for the money but they won't hold up to volume casting.
     

    Melnic

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Dec 27, 2012
    15,282
    HoCo
    I'm going to piggy back on your thread since I"m trying to do the same thing plus I took some shots with your minie balls you sent me.

    So, I was able to scoot out of work during lunchtime to take some shots with the 1863 Springfield.
    Don't let the faux offhand photo fool you, I took all my shots from the bench at 50 yards with the front of the gun resting on the sand bag. I had my left hand in front as I needed some pressure against my shoulder to keep the rifle steady with the massive trigger pull it has. I plan to measure the trigger pull tonight.
    My plastic Slip on front sight worked wonders for a better site picture. Definitely easier to see with it. My guesstimate on how much taller it needed to be compared to the existing sight was nearly spot on. My POA was at the center of the black circle.
    I shot 4 with your lubed minies, 3 with bore butter coated .580 diameter minies from Track of the Wolf and 3 more .585 minies from Track of the wolf. One of the 4 from your minie balls was off the paper or into the same hole, who knows. It may be that big hole on the left of the paper. Looking at the 3 shot groupings there really was not big difference between the 3 with the .580 TOW minies only slightly better. I think I'd have to shoot more to tell. Once again, the trigger pull I think comes into play even though. I have no idea how the lock looks on the inside. I will try to pull it off and clean and lube the sear and measure the trigger pull afterwards.

    I shot each with 60grains 3F Goex

    I will say this, the .585 mb was noticeably harder to push down the first inch or so till it grooved the minie. Your .575? and the .580 were pretty much on par with each other as far as ease of loading.

    Targets are:
    Upper Rt : Lee .575/500 mold. They were sized to .575; lubed with a 50/50 mixture of beeswax & Crisco
    Lower Left : Track of the Wolf .580 lubed with bore butter
    Lower Right : Track of the Wolf .585 lubed with bore butter

    .580 Minie
    https://www.trackofthewolf.com/List/Item.aspx/129/1/BALL-580-MINIE
    .585 Minie
    https://www.trackofthewolf.com/List/Item.aspx/129/1/BALL-585-MINIE

    I also purchased a stick of this but did not use it today
    https://www.trackofthewolf.com/Categories/PartDetail.aspx/155/1/LUBE-SPG
     

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    Mike OTDP

    Ultimate Member
    Feb 12, 2008
    3,318
    You need pure lead. Minies MUST be pure, you need the softness. What lube are you using? You should be getting adequate performance with 40-45 grains of 3F powder.

    And get yourself over to the North-South Skirmish Association BB. They’ve got the real experts with the rifle-musket.
     

    John from MD

    American Patriot
    MDS Supporter
    May 12, 2005
    22,733
    Socialist State of Maryland
    If you are handy, there are a few things you can do to make your lock more shooter friendly. It really only needs a dremel, a set of screwdrivers and a spring compressor. The spring compressor is sold by TOW and isn't expensive. If you are really mechanically inclined, you can take the springs off with a small set of vise grips but you have to be very careful.

    First disassemble the lock and file, sand and polish all the rough spots and machine marks. Use a Cratex bit on a Dremel for the final polish. For polishing the holes for the sear and hammer, use auto polishing compound and just twist the parts around for a while.

    Next the springs need to be lightened up. The more critical spring is the sear as it is very thin. Using a fine stone in the Dremel, you will reduce the width of the spring along both legs. Again, for the sear spring, you need to be very careful 1) to not heat it up and 2) to not take too much off. You want to radius each end of your cut so you don't have any square ends.

    I wouldn't be surprised if some young wippersnapper put a video online but I have not looked for one.

    After you are comfortable with your trigger pull, lube it up with a good light grease and reassemble.

    Notice, I did not say anything about stoning sear and hammer noses. That usually needs to be done but you will need to anneal and reheat treat the parts so just polish them and leave them alone.

    Also, I suggest you try 3f seeing how your groups are kinda spread out.
     

    John from MD

    American Patriot
    MDS Supporter
    May 12, 2005
    22,733
    Socialist State of Maryland
    John, thx for the suggestions.
    BTW, yes, I used 3F Goex in the above shots

    Ok, in that case try a Minie with a thinner skirt, if they still make them. Also, Lee used to make a mold for what was called a "flying ashcan." Some of my buds shooting original rifled muskets had good results with them. Maybe TOW or someone from NSSA still makes them.
     

    j8064

    Garrett Co Hooligan #1
    Feb 23, 2008
    11,635
    Deep Creek
    Melnic,

    Glad you were able to get out and shoot your '63! :thumbsup:

    From the looks of your targets the three different diameters of Minies produced similar results. I'm not surprised the .585's were a lot harder to ram home. Overall, your shot's groups are pretty dayum good!

    A difference in what we're experimenting with is bore. My Perdersoli is a reproduction with a new .577 bore. It's had maybe 50 rounds through it. I checked it with calipers this evening and the lands are pretty close to .577. The groves in my bore look to be about .580.

    I also looked closely at the recovered Minie's I cast using the lead I got from Brickman. I was told it was roofer's lead and I don't doubt that. It's very soft, but I can't validate it's 100% pure. Either way, under magnification the one slug I was able to recover worth measuring definitely shows rifling marks. The OD of the skirt is .580 on the recovered boolit. Not scientific, but it tells me the skirts were expanding when I fired them. Not having keyhole target strikes also supports that notion.

    Mike OTDP & John from MD

    I too very much appreciate your input as well as Threeband's. You guys have a lot more experience shooting these rifles.

    I plan to order some pure lead to try in a batch of Minie's. But I'm not yet ready to throw in the towel on the roofer's lead I have. It's all about learning!

    Another point occurred to me:

    We're comparing accuracy of these muzzle loaders to what we're used to seeing with modern firearms. When I thought about it that way I had to take a step back and say wait a second!

    - I can put 20 rounds in the center of a target with one of my AR's (and other guns) pretty easy - with metallic cartridges loaded on my bench in a controlled setting that are all practically the same proven accurate recipe...

    - Loading a 19th Century Civil War rifle, one shot at a time and in the field, is quite different. There are a TON of variables in loading these rifled muskets...

    Food for thought...

    ;)
     

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