12 Gauge Home Defense Video Field Test: Effects On Walls and Simulated Bodies

Doco Overboard · Mar 26, 2020

platoonDaddy said:
Recall the Montana pheasant hunter who killed a grizzly with birdshot? https://www.wideopenspaces.com/pheasant-hunter-shoots-kills-charging-grizzly-bear/

I have many rounds of steel shot ranging from #3 to #1. Some in 3 1/2". Steel is lighter than lead, but faster. At close range I would have great confidence in it's ability to take care of business.

Steel shot is also good for shooting through a tree canopy when your crow hunting. It doesn't flatten out when going through the foliage but kinda light when yo make a hit so not 100% reliable to a certain height.
Crows are hard to kill though and pretty resilient.
Shoots mistletoe down pretty good from a tree too+ it's environmentally friendly.

jcutonilli · Mar 26, 2020

Blaster229 said:
Indeed.

It's the typical habit of people relying on different equipment to make up for their training short falls.

Aftermarket triggers make people better with trigger press. BS

Suppressor height sights help their bad eyes aim better. BS

birdshot keeps them from killing a no shoot innocent bystander. BS

If birdshot is so great, why don't we ditch all pistol calibers and have everyone carry a Judge with .410 birdshot. That way we eliminate all "bad shoots".

Are you saying that seeing through walls is simply a training issue? Are you saying that you are the perfect shot and never miss?

While innocent bystanders getting shot is not common, it is not so rare that it can be discounted.

I don't know anyone that claims bird shot will magically protect every innocent bystander or that it is the perfect solution to every situation. It does lose its penetration capability quite rapidly after penetrating a barrier limiting the chances a bystander is killed.

The typical 12 ga bird shot load sends more than 400 gr of shot at supersonic velocities, while the typical handgun is not able to come close. It certainly appears to cause a significant amount of damage to simulated targets while the shot is grouped together. Once dispersed through distance or obstacles the shot is not likely to reliably penetrate to vital organs.

Other gauge bird shot may not perform the same. I have seen some testing to suggest that 20 gauge may perform similarly, but anything smaller may not. I have not seen any testing with bird shot in a Judge to know if a shorter barrel would still be effective, but the general trend of shorter barrels is reduced velocity. I would certainly want to see testing of anything smaller or slower than the 12 ga loads that were tested before I would rely on it for self defense.

Blaster229 · Mar 26, 2020

Don't use bird shot for self defense. So you don't value your life that much?
Use pepper spray instead.

I know my abilities. Most people don't know theirs. Mine also doesn't include bird shot, nor does my plan include using a shot gun for self defense.

If bird shot is great for defense and low penetration, then why don't Air Marshals use bird shot in a plane?

P-12 Norm · Mar 26, 2020

Lightyear68 said:
Highly recommended video.

When it comes to 12 gauge self-defense, this video is for the people who don't know what they don't know.

The author's stack of ribs and meat failed to account for the back of the rib cage and the back musculature. I know the vital organs are before those, but when shooting the 00 Buck, the penetration will be slowed by those other barriers.

jcutonilli · Mar 26, 2020

Blaster229 said:
Don't use bird shot for self defense. So you don't value your life that much?
Use pepper spray instead.

I know my abilities. Most people don't know theirs. Mine also doesn't include bird shot, nor does my plan include using a shot gun for self defense.

If bird shot is great for defense and low penetration, then why don't Air Marshals use bird shot in a plane?

I do value my life and understand that I might be that innocent bystander on the other side of the wall. Don't you care about others? Why don't you think people should follow the 4 rules of gun safety? How do you know what is appropriate for everyone in every possible situation?

You have not provided any details of your situation to know if bird shot is or is not appropriate. I certainly is not appropriate for every situation.

I suspect there are several reasons why Air Marshals don't use bird shot. The first is a shotgun is not exactly concealable. They try an remain as anonymous as possible and a shotgun would make them very noticeable. Planes are so confined that makes properly aiming one difficult. I also don't believe there is much of a chance for innocent bystanders to be outside the plane especially when it is flying. All of the bystanders are in potentially knowable locations.

Blaster229 · Mar 26, 2020

jcutonilli said:
I do value my life and understand that I might be that innocent bystander on the other side of the wall. Don't you care about others? Why don't you think people should follow the 4 rules of gun safety? How do you know what is appropriate for everyone in every possible situation?

You have not provided any details of your situation to know if bird shot is or is not appropriate. I certainly is not appropriate for every situation.

I suspect there are several reasons why Air Marshals don't use bird shot. The first is a shotgun is not exactly concealable. They try an remain as anonymous as possible and a shotgun would make them very noticeable. Planes are so confined that makes properly aiming one difficult. I also don't believe there is much of a chance for innocent bystanders to be outside the plane especially when it is flying. All of the bystanders are in potentially knowable locations.

It's not just about bird shot. However, I dispel birdshot by saying a shotgun is not the best home defense weapon.

ZERO Law Enforcement agencies use bird shot in any of their shotguns. I wonder why? They certainly have to worry about bystanders.

Let me ask you this, how do you know that you would never HAVE to shoot through a wall? I want that option. You should want that too.

I'll tell you about the 4 rules of safety..... Those are for the range and in your house with no threats. I spent a whole career training in just about any shooting scenario you could imagine. And I would be happy to tell you that everyone in those scenarios got "flagged" with a pistol.
In a crowded mall, shop, store, you name it. I (and many others)will not be lowering my pistol at every single person who happens to walk in front of me as I am keeping an eye and drawn on the threat. Thats what trigger finger discipline is for.

I always say, it's your shoot. Shoot it the way you do.

For me and many others, we won't be using bird shot or less than acceptable ammo just because you are afraid of being on the other side of a wall of a house.

GUNSnROTORS · Mar 26, 2020

When a member with combined dot-mil, dot-leo, and dot-airmarshal experience is willing to share his recommendations and perspectives on shooting with you, maybe the best thing to do in return is pay attention and thank him for sharing … and for his service.

Blaster229 · Mar 26, 2020

GUNSnROTORS said:
When a member with combined dot-mil, dot-leo, and dot-airmarshal experience is willing to share his recommendations and perspectives on shooting with you, maybe the best thing to do in return is pay attention and thank him for sharing … and for his service.

Geez you're too kind Guns. He doesn't know me. Not that I should be known . lol
I get enthusiastic when it comes to self defense shooting. Like I said earlier, instead of lowering the lethality of your equipment, how about upping the training game instead?

If you're going to use a shotty for home defense, then use the right self defense shell, and know how to land that shot properly.

Just like Glaser safety slugs, what a crock. You shouldn't use those because you think you "might miss".
The less lethal your round is, the less lethal your all important first shot will be.

Pale Ryder · Mar 26, 2020

00 Buckshot, no candystriping. Slugs on butt cuff, but doubtful it would be necessary.

jcutonilli · Mar 27, 2020

Blaster229 said:
It's not just about bird shot. However, I dispel birdshot by saying a shotgun is not the best home defense weapon.

ZERO Law Enforcement agencies use bird shot in any of their shotguns. I wonder why? They certainly have to worry about bystanders.

Let me ask you this, how do you know that you would never HAVE to shoot through a wall? I want that option. You should want that too.

I'll tell you about the 4 rules of safety..... Those are for the range and in your house with no threats. I spent a whole career training in just about any shooting scenario you could imagine. And I would be happy to tell you that everyone in those scenarios got "flagged" with a pistol.
In a crowded mall, shop, store, you name it. I (and many others)will not be lowering my pistol at every single person who happens to walk in front of me as I am keeping an eye and drawn on the threat. Thats what trigger finger discipline is for.

I always say, it's your shoot. Shoot it the way you do.

For me and many others, we won't be using bird shot or less than acceptable ammo just because you are afraid of being on the other side of a wall of a house.

If the issue is really about a shotgun rather than bird shot then shouldn't the question be why don't law enforcement use shotguns? Oh wait, they do. As to why they don't use bird shot likely has to do with the range of situations they need to deal with and the fact that it would not be very effective past short distances. They typically have a handgun with them also.

Your asking the wrong question. It is not about HAVING to shoot through a wall, it is about missing the intended target and having a stray round hit something behind it. This report https://www.policeone.com/police-tr...w-does-your-agency-stack-up-gjG6Z4UVZlhcEASk/ indicates that police in Dallas miss the intended target between 48 and 78 percent of the time with the average being 65 percent of the time. You need to be cognizant about stray rounds the vast majority of the time and that missing the target is very common.

How often do you train for a scenario where the bad guy is in one room and a family member of yours is in the room behind them.

This is why one of the four rules is know your target and what is behind it. You still have no been able to explain how your training allows you to know what is behind a wall.

I get that you are a government type and apparently the rules don't apply to you. Do what I say not what I do.

I am not afraid of what is on the other side of the wall. I am cognizant that there may be situations where what lies beyond the target may be an unacceptable loss that warrants additional precautions such as using bird shot. You don't seem to care about any collateral damage.

jcutonilli · Mar 27, 2020

GUNSnROTORS said:
When a member with combined dot-mil, dot-leo, and dot-airmarshal experience is willing to share his recommendations and perspectives on shooting with you, maybe the best thing to do in return is pay attention and thank him for sharing … and for his service.

He is not really sharing is perspectives. He is simply pontificating that you should not use bird shot/shotguns. No real explanation as to why. How does any of that experience demonstrate that bird shot is ineffective? They simply do not use it. i.e. he does not appear to have any experience using bird shot in self defense situations.

ADR · Mar 27, 2020

jcutonilli said:
If the issue is really about a shotgun rather than bird shot then shouldn't the question be why don't law enforcement use shotguns? Oh wait, they do. As to why they don't use bird shot likely has to do with the range of situations they need to deal with and the fact that it would not be very effective past short distances. They typically have a handgun with them also.

Your asking the wrong question. It is not about HAVING to shoot through a wall, it is about missing the intended target and having a stray round hit something behind it. This report https://www.policeone.com/police-tr...w-does-your-agency-stack-up-gjG6Z4UVZlhcEASk/ indicates that police in Dallas miss the intended target between 48 and 78 percent of the time with the average being 65 percent of the time. You need to be cognizant about stray rounds the vast majority of the time and that missing the target is very common.

How often do you train for a scenario where the bad guy is in one room and a family member of yours is in the room behind them.

This is why one of the four rules is know your target and what is behind it. You still have no been able to explain how your training allows you to know what is behind a wall.

I get that you are a government type and apparently the rules don't apply to you. Do what I say not what I do.

I am not afraid of what is on the other side of the wall. I am cognizant that there may be situations where what lies beyond the target may be an unacceptable loss that warrants additional precautions such as using bird shot. You don't seem to care about any collateral damage.

Nothing Blaster said implied what you typed in the bolded above. The real issue is you either aren't willing or aren't capable of understanding what he's trying to get across to you.

Get off your "government agent thinks the rules don't apply to them" ******** and you might learn a thing or two. I assure you, you have no real concept of how often those guys (as in what Blaster did) train and just how many rounds they put down range in a career.

ADR · Mar 27, 2020

jcutonilli said:
He is not really sharing is perspectives. He is simply pontificating that you should not use bird shot/shotguns. No real explanation as to why. How does any of that experience demonstrate that bird shot is ineffective? They simply do not use it. i.e. he does not appear to have any experience using bird shot in self defense situations.

Do you?

jcutonilli · Mar 27, 2020

ADR said:
Nothing Blaster said implied what you typed in the bolded above. The real issue is you either aren't willing or aren't capable of understanding what he's trying to get across to you.

Get off your "government agent thinks the rules don't apply to them" ******** and you might learn a thing or two. I assure you, you have no real concept of how often those guys (as in what Blaster did) train and just how many rounds they put down range in a career.

Blaster229 said:
I'll tell you about the 4 rules of safety..... Those are for the range and in your house with no threats.

i.e. the 4 rules don't apply to him

I certainly get that he does not think it is appropriate to use bird shot/shotgun in self defense. The problem is that he does not explain why.

He seems to believe that training is the answer, but myself and probably most everyone else is not so highly trained. How is everyone else supposed to deal with the situation?

jcutonilli · Mar 27, 2020

ADR said:
Do you?

We are discussing a video on the subject. Nothing I have said is based on my personal experiences with bird shot in home defense. It is based on other peoples experiences such as one presented in the original post.

Melnic · Mar 27, 2020

Someone needs to put some meat on the other side of the wall and a number of feet past the wall to IMO show effects of over penetration.
Its pretty clear that your going to tear up tissue in a direct impact hit within a room with birdshot.

There are I believe lots of instances of people unleashing birdshot in incidents and it being less than lethal. Its all about distance.

I shot a deer this year with a muzzleloader, double lung shot, the bullet hit a tree a few feet on the other side. It bounced off the tree and knocked bark off. Did not stick into the tree.
If I would have missed the deer it would have embedded into the tree. Yes, hitting your target will not cause overpenetration on the other side of a wall, but I think you have to consider that.
If I were to see an intruder in my home at my daughter's door, I can't shoot without thinking about missing and going through and hitting my daughter who's bed I can see from mine with our doors open.

Blaster229 · Mar 27, 2020

jcutonilli said:
He is not really sharing is perspectives. He is simply pontificating that you should not use bird shot/shotguns. No real explanation as to why. How does any of that experience demonstrate that bird shot is ineffective? They simply do not use it. i.e. he does not appear to have any experience using bird shot in self defense situations.

I have no bird shot experience because BIRD SHOT is not an appropriate shot for self defense. Neither is a shotgun for inside home defense.
I've never used a crossbow either but can say that is not feasible as well. It could work, but not practical.

Again. Why use hollow point ammunition when glaser safety slugs are safer? Because it is not as EFFECTIVE.

Do you have any training at all? Because when it comes to saving your life or that of a loved one in your home, accuracy is of the utmost.

And you assume that you are going to make a perfect first full hit with that birdshot. If you hit an arm or a leg, that person is still coming and I doubt at self defense distance you're not racking that slide fast enough to get another shot.

If you hunker down in your bedroom waiting for a bad guy to enter (which is preferable in a house situation) and have a shotgun to use when he comes through that beautiful fatal funnel, that's fine. Use 00 buck.

I know your type. You are that guy in a class that always says "But we used to do it this way" throughout the day.

outrider58 · Mar 27, 2020

jcutonilli said:
He is not really sharing is perspectives. He is simply pontificating that you should not use bird shot/shotguns. No real explanation as to why. How does any of that experience demonstrate that bird shot is ineffective? They simply do not use it. i.e. he does not appear to have any experience using bird shot in self defense situations.

The man has been trained in just about every scenario imaginable and then some. He has fired not tens, but possibly hundreds of thousands of rounds down range. His comments should not be taken as pontification. They should be taken as gospel.

Jake4U · Mar 27, 2020

It was an informative video. Thanks. My newest "bump in the night" comfort firearm is a Remington Tac-13. Tried it at the range and the hype was accurate: it will digest anything. Been a #4 fan for a long time, but may consider something lighter after watching this. A semi auto unloading of #8 would likely put down any nefarious bump.

OLM-Medic · Mar 27, 2020

why even use birdshot? all you have to do is rack the shotgun and they will run.

12 Gauge Home Defense Video Field Test: Effects On Walls and Simulated Bodies

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