Need help with 30.06 accuracy issues

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  • kooJoe

    Member
    Sep 23, 2013
    26
    near cambridge
    How would I determine that? The copper marks in the barrel are consistent and even, but other than that, is there something I should look for?

    Next step is test fire to see if the barrel recrown did anything good. Will post back here with results.

    Well i guess you would have determined that when you were developing your loads. Its usually the first place I start. Uncharged brass with bullet seated way out... put in action... close action bullet getting pushed deeper into brass, and likely into the lands. On my 22-250 I i pushed the bullet in incrementally until im .001” from the lands with seater. My .308 shoots my hand load recipe best when the bullets are .005” from the lands. And in reading back through my notes i did acheive better groups by using a more expensive seating die. The one i was using for the .308 originally was doing a bad job seating the bullets evenly, consequently the bullet was not entering the lands uniform. It was upset and made for bad groups. When you rolled the ammo along a flat table top you could see the bullet runout.... was terrible.
     

    Uncle Duke

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Feb 2, 2013
    11,665
    Not Far Enough from the City
    Paralex was correct, poa didn't move with eye movement.

    I went as hot as 57gr of imr4350, 1/2 grain at a time. As the charge went up, accuracy of 3rd groups went down.

    No crimping.

    Barrel/chamber are clean, as expected with a new barrel

    I don't understand what you're asking about bullet relationship to lands

    OP, you may know this, but then again maybe not.

    Two thoughts to keep in mind when it comes to your bullet's relationship to your rifle's lands. First, how the hell do I measure it? And secondly, if i could indeed measure it, what happens to my group size if and when I purposely decide to vary it?

    Many and most reloaders load cartridges to a reloading manual specified cartridge overall length. Say 3.21" in '06 for grins. They measure from case base to bullet tip. A fine and dandy and safe method for many people much of the time. Plenty good accuracy results, accuracy that they deem to be plenty good enough for what they wish to accomplish. Fine and fair, and a happy camper.

    But where the rubber truly meets the road in striving for the utmost consistency is the relationship of your bullet's ogive to your rifle's lands. Measuring from case base to bullet tip allows for neither accurate measurement nor consistent control of that relationship.

    One can quickly and easily become funny farm eligible with reloading. But if you're interested in learning about and experimenting with a level of exactness in your loads that differs from most, you'll need a comparator and an OAL (overall length) gauge. These tools allow you to bring that ogive into play. Hornady and Sinclair both have product and videos that explain what you're trying to accomplish, how you go about that, and why.
     

    Boats

    Beer, Bikes n Boomsticks
    Mar 13, 2012
    4,073
    Howeird County
    OP, you may know this, but then again maybe not.

    Two thoughts to keep in mind when it comes to your bullet's relationship to your rifle's lands. First, how the hell do I measure it? And secondly, if i could indeed measure it, what happens to my group size if and when I purposely decide to vary it?

    Many and most reloaders load cartridges to a reloading manual specified cartridge overall length. Say 3.21" in '06 for grins. They measure from case base to bullet tip. A fine and dandy and safe method for many people much of the time. Plenty good accuracy results, accuracy that they deem to be plenty good enough for what they wish to accomplish. Fine and fair, and a happy camper.

    But where the rubber truly meets the road in striving for the utmost consistency is the relationship of your bullet's ogive to your rifle's lands. Measuring from case base to bullet tip allows for neither accurate measurement nor consistent control of that relationship.

    One can quickly and easily become funny farm eligible with reloading. But if you're interested in learning about and experimenting with a level of exactness in your loads that differs from most, you'll need a comparator and an OAL (overall length) gauge. These tools allow you to bring that ogive into play. Hornady and Sinclair both have product and videos that explain what you're trying to accomplish, how you go about that, and why.

    I didn't. Thank you.

    I will look for those videos and dig out the credit card
     

    Boats

    Beer, Bikes n Boomsticks
    Mar 13, 2012
    4,073
    Howeird County
    Food for thought... against every grain in my body, I full length bedded by new 6.5prc 27” barrel blank attached to an antique rem 721 action. I was pleasantly surprised by consistency and tightness of factory round groups. I realize this may not work for you, i think you said you switch between actions...

    I guess I do?

    I have a .308 SA Remy 700 in an unbeddded Magpul stock. I chopped and recrowned the stock barrel to 16.25” knowing I would lose velocity but, for some reason known only to me, that's what I wanted. Stuck a 10x40 fixed Bushy elite scope on it in some Weaver rings I had lying around and the damn thing shoots better than I can. 4-rounds under an inch at 200, consistently...with good factory ammo

    The LA Remy 700 with the spanking new barrel, with the blueprinted action, the desireable "old" Remy trigger, in the same brand and model stock, with a properly seasoned new barrel.... Shoots worse with handloads than my AR10 with factory feed.

    Hence why I presented this problem to the brain trust. I already consulted with a former member of, and I hope I get the term right, the president's 100, or 500, can't remember, and he recommended chopping .25-.50 off the barrel due to rifling node issues.

    But it truly is enough to drive one to drink whilst pulling your hair out
     

    Jerry M

    Ultimate Member
    Jun 13, 2007
    1,688
    Glen Burnie MD
    Just for clarification, the handloads were IMR4350, but i am thinking of changing to Hogdon H4350 for it's temperature stability.

    IMR4350 starting load, per Hogdon, is 54grains. These handloads were at 53.9

    Normally you will not get accuracy from a low powder charge.

    Good luck

    Jerry
     

    atblis

    Ultimate Member
    May 23, 2010
    2,011
    I think you may be over estimating the statistical validity of your 100 yard groupings. What happens if you shoot 5 round groups at 100 yards? Will it put 3-4 rounds into 1/4" groups for 3 or more groups in a row?
     

    ted76

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Jan 20, 2013
    3,151
    Frederick
    How would I determine that? The copper marks in the barrel are consistent and even, but other than that, is there something I should look for?

    Next step is test fire to see if the barrel recrown did anything good. Will post back here with results.

    Make up a dummy round with the bullet you plan on using, seat it to maximum over all length, which my Sierra manual shows as 3.285" for the 168 HPBT Matchking. Mark the bullet at the case mouth, chamber the dummy round and extract slowly. I you see small almost straight lines on the bullet olgive, that is the bullet engaging the lands. make sure that the bullet hasn't been set back in the case, if it has that you will get a false measurement. If the bullet has been set back, reduce your overall length by the amount it was set back and try again. If the bullet wasn't set back and you see the marks on the olgive reduce the OAL of the cartridge by .0001, until you don't see the lands marks any more. That's where you need to start to find the sweet spot for OAL, A bullet touching the lands is a good was to get excessive chamber pressures, especially with hotter loads. Usually a bullet needs to jump a thousands or so to the lands, to provide the best results.
    Good luck
     

    Bountied

    Ultimate Member
    Apr 6, 2012
    6,884
    Pasadena
    How would I determine that? The copper marks in the barrel are consistent and even, but other than that, is there something I should look for?

    Next step is test fire to see if the barrel recrown did anything good. Will post back here with results.

    Your cartridge over all length (COAL) is measured using a micrometer, tip to tail. The distance from your bullet to the lands is based on your COAL, and your chamber. There is a Youtube video showing how to make a seating depth gauge using a piece of brass with a slit cut into the neck. You take a bullet place it in the empty cut case and chamber it. Close the bolt slowly then remove it. Measure the COAL of your "Gauge" to determine the depth of your lands. Then you back off your seating depth .002-.004" off of that measurement. Some reloaders like to limit the "jump" of the bullet to the lands to help with accuracy and stabilization. The "Jump" is how far your bullet goes from the case before contacting the lands. I've had mixed results with this technique and typically just load to standard seating depths per the manual. Increasing the COAL can create issues with magazine fed rifles due to the increased length of the cartridge. YMMV
     

    sxs

    Senior Member
    MDS Supporter
    Nov 20, 2009
    3,377
    Anne Arundel County, MD
    Your cartridge over all length (COAL) is measured using a micrometer, tip to tail. The distance from your bullet to the lands is based on your COAL, and your chamber. There is a Youtube video showing how to make a seating depth gauge using a piece of brass with a slit cut into the neck. You take a bullet place it in the empty cut case and chamber it. Close the bolt slowly then remove it. Measure the COAL of your "Gauge" to determine the depth of your lands. Then you back off your seating depth .002-.004" off of that measurement. Some reloaders like to limit the "jump" of the bullet to the lands to help with accuracy and stabilization. The "Jump" is how far your bullet goes from the case before contacting the lands. I've had mixed results with this technique and typically just load to standard seating depths per the manual. Increasing the COAL can create issues with magazine fed rifles due to the increased length of the cartridge. YMMV

    I've had good luck limiting the 'jump'. Just be sure there is a jump. Contact with the lands with no jump can cause pressure spikes.
     
    Last edited:

    j_h_smith

    Ultimate Member
    Jul 28, 2007
    28,516
    I think you should try it with the new crowning of the barrel. I think you may have fixed the problem with that. I had a rifle that shot miserably. No consistency. Recrowned the factory barrel and the groups tighten right up.

    Good Luck!
     

    Nanook

    F-notso-NG-anymore
    Charge weight is low.

    Run an OCW and get higher into the range.

    Dan Newberry's OCW for .30-06 is 57.5 grain 4350 with a 165 grain bullet.

    http://optimalchargeweight.embarqspace.com/

    General FYI / CYA note:

    In case somebody not involved in the conversation so far is reading this later and missed the important parts: this is for a bolt gun .30-06. General rule of thumb, M1 Garand loads are lower loads than bolt guns but the best bet is to search current load data at the time you load if this is new to you.
     

    Boats

    Beer, Bikes n Boomsticks
    Mar 13, 2012
    4,073
    Howeird County
    I read some of Ed Shells writings as well as the ladder and ocw stuff. I think there is some creedence there. If the recrowned barrel doesn't change anything o think I will give that a try
     

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