Go Back   Maryland Shooters > The Neighborhood > West Virginia

Notices


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old March 22nd, 2017, 11:31 PM #41
Not_an_outlaw Not_an_outlaw is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Mechanicsville, MD
Posts: 1,551
Not_an_outlaw Not_an_outlaw is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Mechanicsville, MD
Posts: 1,551
Quote:
Originally Posted by ten75ice View Post
Employees of PNTC have basically been issued a gag order. Anything that's public knowledge we may discuss, but we will not at any time, incriminate PNTC. We must preserve PNTC for our long term mission & goals. It is not our intent to "ignore" anyone, but to protect yours and our rights as citizens and the 2nd ammendment. We are business as usual, and there are no scheduling impacts in regards to this case. Mother nature though has smacked us around this week, but we prevail. Other information regarding this case can be obtained by contacting the WVCDL.

Thanks again everone for your support. We are always stronger together.
It will be difficult for me to contribute if I don't know what the issue is.
Not_an_outlaw is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 23rd, 2017, 11:38 AM #42
bcr229 bcr229 is offline
FFL/SOT
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Inwood, WV
Posts: 276
bcr229 bcr229 is offline
FFL/SOT
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Inwood, WV
Posts: 276
Short answer: range opened in WV in 2011. Owners of adjacent property in VA filed suit for noise/nuisance in Berkeley County, WV in 2015. The lawsuit proceeded at a (more or less) normal snails pace and it is now in the discovery phase. Under Berkeley County's noise ordinances and/or state law the range should be protected from these types of lawsuits but the judge has ignored that.

As part of the discovery the plaintiffs requested the following:
- List of current and former members
- A&D book
- Copies of all 4473's
- Copies of ATF forms, including F4's to transferees.

Peacemaker obviously fought the request, lost, docs were turned over yesterday.
__________________
EFI, LLC 07/C2 - Custom firearms, gunsmithing, and machine gun rentals in the eastern WV panhandle.

TankVest.com - Attach MOLLE gear to your motorcycle gas tank.
bcr229 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 23rd, 2017, 11:50 AM #43
Not_an_outlaw Not_an_outlaw is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Mechanicsville, MD
Posts: 1,551
Not_an_outlaw Not_an_outlaw is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Mechanicsville, MD
Posts: 1,551
Quote:
Originally Posted by bcr229 View Post
Short answer: range opened in WV in 2011. Owners of adjacent property in VA filed suit for noise/nuisance in Berkeley County, WV in 2015. The lawsuit proceeded at a (more or less) normal snails pace and it is now in the discovery phase. Under Berkeley County's noise ordinances and/or state law the range should be protected from these types of lawsuits but the judge has ignored that.

As part of the discovery the plaintiffs requested the following:
- List of current and former members
- A&D book
- Copies of all 4473's
- Copies of ATF forms, including F4's to transferees.

Peacemaker obviously fought the request, lost, docs were turned over yesterday.
Why all the secret squirrel?
Not_an_outlaw is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 23rd, 2017, 03:21 PM #44
ten75ice's Avatar
ten75ice ten75ice is offline
Career Fire Fighter
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Falling Waters, WV
Posts: 254
ten75ice ten75ice is offline
Career Fire Fighter
ten75ice's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Falling Waters, WV
Posts: 254
Quote:
Originally Posted by Not_an_outlaw View Post
Why all the secret squirrel?
That's pretty much it so far. No secret squirrel stuff, the owner just would prefer if employee's would not go into specifics. Information you get from anyone else other than employee's of PNTC, so far has been pretty accurate.
__________________
Down Zero at Peacemaker National Training Center

Glengary, WV

Certifications are not a measure of your abilities, unless you are measuring your ability to sit in a classroom.
ten75ice is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 24th, 2017, 01:28 AM #45
TheGunnyRet's Avatar
TheGunnyRet TheGunnyRet is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: Smithsburg MD
Posts: 1,778
TheGunnyRet TheGunnyRet is offline
Senior Member
TheGunnyRet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: Smithsburg MD
Posts: 1,778
Though I think this is a Anti-Gun ploy or nudge from unknown instigators (maybe).

What does all of that Private Information HAVE tot do with Noise from the Barrel of a Weapon.

Again to me seems to be the Judge is being Political. taking crib notes from the 9th Crkt Crt...

I would look at the States Constitution and Oath of the Judge and look at Mis-Conduct Filing to send a message. JMO
__________________
President Trump
"My job is not to represent the world. My job is to represent the U.S. of A."


GYSGT USMC Ret
TheGunnyRet is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 24th, 2017, 09:55 AM #46
bcr229 bcr229 is offline
FFL/SOT
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Inwood, WV
Posts: 276
bcr229 bcr229 is offline
FFL/SOT
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Inwood, WV
Posts: 276
Quote:
Originally Posted by Not_an_outlaw View Post
Why all the secret squirrel?
I'm guessing you've never been involved in a civil suit.

When you're paying an attorney $300 per hour for advice, and he tells you to keep your mouth shut, you shut your yap. Even if you're 100% in the right, you don't hand the opposition ammunition to use against you.
__________________
EFI, LLC 07/C2 - Custom firearms, gunsmithing, and machine gun rentals in the eastern WV panhandle.

TankVest.com - Attach MOLLE gear to your motorcycle gas tank.
bcr229 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 24th, 2017, 10:28 AM #47
hup234 hup234 is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2017
Posts: 30
hup234 hup234 is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2017
Posts: 30
Quote:
Originally Posted by bcr229 View Post
I'm guessing you've never been involved in a civil suit.

When you're paying an attorney $300 per hour for advice, and he tells you to keep your mouth shut, you shut your yap. Even if you're 100% in the right, you don't hand the opposition ammunition to use against you.
$300 per hour ... and this will probably drag out for years.
hup234 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 24th, 2017, 10:38 AM #48
Engine4's Avatar
Engine4 Engine4 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Westminster
Posts: 2,974
Engine4 Engine4 is offline
Senior Member
Engine4's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Westminster
Posts: 2,974
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheGunnyRet View Post
What does all of that Private Information HAVE tot do with Noise from the Barrel of a Weapon.
Cuz that's how Bloomberg operates.....
__________________
____________________________________________
President Trump!
Support the NRA, MSI, MSRPA, USCCA, AGC, VCDL, & MDS
Engine4 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 24th, 2017, 01:44 PM #49
TheGunnyRet's Avatar
TheGunnyRet TheGunnyRet is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: Smithsburg MD
Posts: 1,778
TheGunnyRet TheGunnyRet is offline
Senior Member
TheGunnyRet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: Smithsburg MD
Posts: 1,778
Quote:
Originally Posted by Engine4 View Post
Cuz that's how Bloomberg operates.....
That's what I figured, need to set some crosshairs on that Ahole
__________________
President Trump
"My job is not to represent the world. My job is to represent the U.S. of A."


GYSGT USMC Ret
TheGunnyRet is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 25th, 2017, 07:11 AM #50
marc357 marc357 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Woodbine, MD
Posts: 185
marc357 marc357 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Woodbine, MD
Posts: 185
Quote:
Originally Posted by bcr229 View Post
I'm guessing you've never been involved in a civil suit.

When you're paying an attorney $300 per hour for advice, and he tells you to keep your mouth shut, you shut your yap. Even if you're 100% in the right, you don't hand the opposition ammunition to use against you.
Right up til the demand for his customer's personal info, then we ALL became involved, and should have been notified. We have (HAD) the right to address the court, and get together to fight it, but didn't know about it until it was already decided.

Now an unfortunate legal precedent has been set.
__________________
ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ
marc357 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 25th, 2017, 09:28 AM #51
E.Shell's Avatar
E.Shell E.Shell is offline
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Point to Point
Posts: 5,707
E.Shell E.Shell is offline
E.Shell's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Point to Point
Posts: 5,707
Quote:
Originally Posted by marc357 View Post
Right up til the demand for his customer's personal info, then we ALL became involved, and should have been notified. We have (HAD) the right to address the court, and get together to fight it, but didn't know about it until it was already decided.

Now an unfortunate legal precedent has been set.
Agreed.

As soon as the security of my personal information was threatened, I was due notice. Notice that was withheld to the detriment of my own welfare and privacy. To keep this from me, and the rest of us, effectively circumvented any legal remedy any of us may have had. How are we to be compensated for this loss and breach?

Another aspect of keeping this crap secret until after it was over was that any chance Peacemaker had of getting qualified legal help and support from the membership was eliminated. Can anyone guess how much it may have mattered if we had packed the courtroom? How much it may have mattered to have any number of additional attorney members helping with this. No telling now...

Private tax records (Form 4s) compromised. Federal forms (4473s) surrendered to non-federal personnel. Names, addresses, telephone numbers, email addresses and social security numbers now a matter of public record. Who safeguards this now?

Trying to fight this alone and secretly without membership and guest notification and involvement has now cost us, the national shooting community, a HUGE price in setting this precedent.

Isn't there now a case in Georgia that follows this path?

The fact that a very valuable local resource is now in grave jeopardy, quite possibly due to the way this was initially handled, is certainly a shame, but quite secondary to other concerns.

And NOW, as the damage is done, the dust settles and our personal information compromised, they want money? Seems legit...
__________________
The beatings will continue until morale improves.

"None are so hopelessly enslaved as those who falsely believe they are free" - J. W. Von Goethe

Central Virginia Tactical Long Range Precision
E.Shell is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 25th, 2017, 09:49 AM #52
ten75ice's Avatar
ten75ice ten75ice is offline
Career Fire Fighter
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Falling Waters, WV
Posts: 254
ten75ice ten75ice is offline
Career Fire Fighter
ten75ice's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Falling Waters, WV
Posts: 254
Quote:
Originally Posted by marc357 View Post
Right up til the demand for his customer's personal info, then we ALL became involved, and should have been notified. We have (HAD) the right to address the court, and get together to fight it, but didn't know about it until it was already decided.

Now an unfortunate legal precedent has been set.

The discovery order was just handed down, we were just as surprised as everyone else.
__________________
Down Zero at Peacemaker National Training Center

Glengary, WV

Certifications are not a measure of your abilities, unless you are measuring your ability to sit in a classroom.
ten75ice is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 26th, 2017, 07:26 AM #53
marc357 marc357 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Woodbine, MD
Posts: 185
marc357 marc357 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Woodbine, MD
Posts: 185
Quote:
Originally Posted by ten75ice View Post
The discovery order was just handed down, we were just as surprised as everyone else.
That's not the way it read to me, allow me to quote PNTC's statement:

"Despite numerous motions and requests to reconsider, and numerous mediation efforts with the plaintiff, the court has ordered PNTC to produce the below documents and other private records under a "Protective Order." "

Clearly this has been going on for longer than last Friday.

Either way, someone could/ should have grown a sack and removed the docs from the property and secure them somewhere else while it is appealed, rather than fold like a cheap suit.

Lots of talk about "The 2nd Amendment guarantees us the tools we need to fight government tyranny"....... Well, this IS what tyranny looks like.... So if you don't even have the stones to stand up to an activist Local judge who is in clear violation of the law.... what will you do when there's *real* trouble?

Might as well sell your guns and take up golf. Just kneel at the edge of the ditch and wait for it.
__________________
ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ
marc357 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 26th, 2017, 12:46 PM #54
Biggfoot44 Biggfoot44 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 11,482
Biggfoot44 Biggfoot44 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 11,482
The nature of the ruling may have been a surprise, but not that the question was in serious play.
Biggfoot44 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 28th, 2017, 06:34 PM #55
ten75ice's Avatar
ten75ice ten75ice is offline
Career Fire Fighter
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Falling Waters, WV
Posts: 254
ten75ice ten75ice is offline
Career Fire Fighter
ten75ice's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Falling Waters, WV
Posts: 254
Quote:
Originally Posted by marc357 View Post
That's not the way it read to me, allow me to quote PNTC's statement:

"Despite numerous motions and requests to reconsider, and numerous mediation efforts with the plaintiff, the court has ordered PNTC to produce the below documents and other private records under a "Protective Order." "

Clearly this has been going on for longer than last Friday.

Either way, someone could/ should have grown a sack and removed the docs from the property and secure them somewhere else while it is appealed, rather than fold like a cheap suit.

Lots of talk about "The 2nd Amendment guarantees us the tools we need to fight government tyranny"....... Well, this IS what tyranny looks like.... So if you don't even have the stones to stand up to an activist Local judge who is in clear violation of the law.... what will you do when there's *real* trouble?

Might as well sell your guns and take up golf. Just kneel at the edge of the ditch and wait for it.
I guess you have all the answers then man, don't know what else to tell you.
__________________
Down Zero at Peacemaker National Training Center

Glengary, WV

Certifications are not a measure of your abilities, unless you are measuring your ability to sit in a classroom.
ten75ice is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 28th, 2017, 08:05 PM #56
jcutonilli jcutonilli is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 234
jcutonilli jcutonilli is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 234
Quote:
Originally Posted by bcr229 View Post
I'm guessing you've never been involved in a civil suit.

When you're paying an attorney $300 per hour for advice, and he tells you to keep your mouth shut, you shut your yap. Even if you're 100% in the right, you don't hand the opposition ammunition to use against you.
Lawyers only give legal advice and it should be understood that there may be other factors that need to be taken into account. In this case, Peacemakers customers may not go back because they released their records. That is a negative affect that the lawyers don't factor because it is a business decision and not a legal one.

Quote:
Originally Posted by marc357 View Post
Right up til the demand for his customer's personal info, then we ALL became involved, and should have been notified. We have (HAD) the right to address the court, and get together to fight it, but didn't know about it until it was already decided.

Now an unfortunate legal precedent has been set.
They are business records that happen to have personal information in them. That information was given by the customer and is now the property of Peacemaker. None of the customers are currently a party to the suit so they don't really have a right to address the court on this issue. The records are under a protective order so the information is not part of the public record of the case and the lawyers can get in trouble if they release the information.
jcutonilli is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 28th, 2017, 08:23 PM #57
Schipperke's Avatar
Schipperke Schipperke is offline
Capt. Snarky
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Монтгомери
Posts: 10,377
Schipperke Schipperke is offline
Capt. Snarky
Schipperke's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Монтгомери
Posts: 10,377
$300 /hr ? They better have hired a gun more valuable than that..

Quote:
Either way, someone could/ should have grown a sack and removed the docs from the property and secure them somewhere else while it is appealed, rather than fold like a cheap suit.
Wonderful, spoliation and contempt. You might as well tell them to shut down now.
Schipperke is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 28th, 2017, 08:53 PM #58
Not_an_outlaw Not_an_outlaw is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Mechanicsville, MD
Posts: 1,551
Not_an_outlaw Not_an_outlaw is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Mechanicsville, MD
Posts: 1,551
Quote:
Originally Posted by ten75ice View Post
Employees of PNTC have basically been issued a gag order.
So, there really wasn't a court ordered gag order?

Quote:
Originally Posted by bcr229 View Post
I'm guessing you've never been involved in a civil suit.

When you're paying an attorney $300 per hour for advice, and he tells you to keep your mouth shut, you shut your yap. Even if you're 100% in the right, you don't hand the opposition ammunition to use against you.
As a matter of fact I have. And, $300.00 is an entry level lawyer. If that's all you're paying, maybe they aren't getting good advice. Did anyone contact the NRA for assistance?

I want to know who this guy is?
What does he do for a living?
Same question for wife?
Where does he go to church?
What is his party affiliation?
Is he active in politics?
What are his extra curricular activities?
Are there other nose problems in the neighborhood?
Where are the .pdfs of the filings?
What are those noise levels?
What kind of house does he live in?
is there a buffer?
Are his neighbors complaining?
Is there an airport near by?
What is his connection to the attorney?
Did anyone object to him being allowed to practice out of state?

There's dirt here. Private investigators are $50.00 per hour where I live. There is something here. Someone go find it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ten75ice View Post
I guess you have all the answers then man, don't know what else to tell you.
You apparently do not "have all the answers" and have not, in my opinion, handled this well.

Not_an_outlaw is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

  Home Page > Forum List > The Neighborhood > West Virginia


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 2 (1 members and 1 guests)
BigT
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 05:42 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
2016, Maryland Shooters, LLC