M44 Question:

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  • tallen702

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Sep 3, 2012
    5,120
    In the boonies of MoCo
    So, I picked up one of the bottom-of-the-barrel M44s that AIM had a year or two ago. "Functioning with good bores but holy hell is the rest of it a mess" kind of deal. $99 was all it took, so I said "eff it!" and hit the buy button. It came in crusted in cosmo, mud, and rust. The stock was beat to hell with gouges, breaks, and splices galore. Heavy pitting on a few minor areas. One rear corner of the mag well, one of the barrel bands, a bit on the butt plate, but the rest of it actually cleaned up pretty well. Several good scrub-downs with soap and boiling water, some steam-cleaning for the hard-to-reach places, electrolysis treatment for the rust, and then a good thin coat of rem-oil with a thorough wipe-down for protection and the metal was good. The stock took a ton of steam cleaning to get the cosmo and dirt out, but eventually cleaned up halfway-decently. I haven't fired it yet, it just sits in the safe, and here's why and where I could use some help.

    It's a 1945 Izzy. There are no refurbishment/re-arsenal marks anywhere. The entire thing is matching except for the bolt. The entire action and all parts but the bolt are Russian, the bolt is Chinese. The inletting for the sling escutcheons (which are missing) is HEAVILY worn on one side from continuous rubbing by the sling. This tells me it saw heavy use. Lastly, the stock. All the splices are most definitely NOT birch. They do, however, look exactly like the chu wood used on my Type 53.

    The only thing that AIM could tell myself and the others who bought these is that they came buried in the bottom of a shipment of Norinco SKSs via Albania. All of them were the same. Some had the original Russian bolts in them but were usually mis-matched, all were non-refurbished, all had the non-birch chu-wood type splices in the stocks, heavy wear on the sling holes, etc.

    My speculation is that they were "gifts" from the USSR to Mao or Kim Il Sung at some point. I just can't think of any way to verify or debunk this theory. Anyone know of any way to go about it?
     

    woodline

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Jan 8, 2017
    1,947
    So, I picked up one of the bottom-of-the-barrel M44s that AIM had a year or two ago. "Functioning with good bores but holy hell is the rest of it a mess" kind of deal. $99 was all it took, so I said "eff it!" and hit the buy button. It came in crusted in cosmo, mud, and rust. The stock was beat to hell with gouges, breaks, and splices galore. Heavy pitting on a few minor areas. One rear corner of the mag well, one of the barrel bands, a bit on the butt plate, but the rest of it actually cleaned up pretty well. Several good scrub-downs with soap and boiling water, some steam-cleaning for the hard-to-reach places, electrolysis treatment for the rust, and then a good thin coat of rem-oil with a thorough wipe-down for protection and the metal was good. The stock took a ton of steam cleaning to get the cosmo and dirt out, but eventually cleaned up halfway-decently. I haven't fired it yet, it just sits in the safe, and here's why and where I could use some help.

    It's a 1945 Izzy. There are no refurbishment/re-arsenal marks anywhere. The entire thing is matching except for the bolt. The entire action and all parts but the bolt are Russian, the bolt is Chinese. The inletting for the sling escutcheons (which are missing) is HEAVILY worn on one side from continuous rubbing by the sling. This tells me it saw heavy use. Lastly, the stock. All the splices are most definitely NOT birch. They do, however, look exactly like the chu wood used on my Type 53.

    The only thing that AIM could tell myself and the others who bought these is that they came buried in the bottom of a shipment of Norinco SKSs via Albania. All of them were the same. Some had the original Russian bolts in them but were usually mis-matched, all were non-refurbished, all had the non-birch chu-wood type splices in the stocks, heavy wear on the sling holes, etc.

    My speculation is that they were "gifts" from the USSR to Mao or Kim Il Sung at some point. I just can't think of any way to verify or debunk this theory. Anyone know of any way to go about it?
    I have no useful information to provide, but I did want to say thank you for posting this. Learning about the history and provenance of old firearms is incredibly interesting to me.
     

    CodeWarrior1241

    Active Member
    Sep 23, 2013
    827
    Lutherville
    I didn't find a whole lot on the Russian language side about these - not much out there regarding the M44s gifted to the PRC in the late 40s and early 50s. It is very possible your rifle saw some service in the Korean war period. Alternatively, it might have gotten carried in Albania later on... When the only power supporting them was the PRC, second-line formations in Albania were issued Mosin rifles for a time.
     
    Last edited:

    tallen702

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Sep 3, 2012
    5,120
    In the boonies of MoCo
    Pics would be awesome.

    Ask and ye shall receive!

    First Photo: Date and arsenal
    Second Photo: Triangle 21 Arsenal mark on bolt from China
    Third Photo: Escutcheon holes eroded greatly by sling
    Fourth Photo: Long, atypical stock splice in wrist of non-birch
    Fifth Photo: un-repaired damage to stock
    Sixth Photo: Splices at nose cap on lower hand-guard with atypical wood (one missing).
     

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    Alphabrew

    Binary male Lesbian
    Jan 27, 2013
    40,758
    Woodbine
    I remember this batch but I can't add any new info. They were Albanian as you stated. I got two that were pretty decent, ended up keeping the best one. 1946 with Chinese bolt but otherwise matching, solid stock.
     

    aps410

    Member
    Dec 10, 2015
    48
    Howard County
    My speculation is that they were "gifts" from the USSR to Mao or Kim Il Sung at some point. I just can't think of any way to verify or debunk this theory. Anyone know of any way to go about it?

    I did some digging and this is the best I can come up with.
    The only source of m44s the Chinese would have had access to were ones left over from the red army occupation of Manchuria or the m44s that the Chinese would have to buy for the Korean war. (the type 53 began production towards the end of the Korean war). This would certainly explain all of the Russian parts on your rifle.

    The interesting part occurs during the 60's. Apparently the Chinese thought they could 1-up the soviets by claiming that Khrushchev had abandoned the "ideals of the revolution" and the Soviets were becoming more aligned with capitalism. The only other country that agreed with the Chinese were none other than Albania. This lead to a tentative alliance between the Albanians and the Chinese against teh Soviets and the rest of the Warsaw Pact. While this sounds crazy, I will link a declassified CIA report detailing the politics behind it.

    What is important for us is that during this time, the Chinese were supplying the Albanians with multiple forms of aid. I would say with high probability that your m44 was one of the 752000 guns delivered to Albania from China as a part of military aid. (the only source for this number comes from a Chinese blogger who claims they got their info from Chinese national archive which we can't access. So the number can't be verified but it is believable). This would explain the Chinese bolt and how it ended up in an import to the US from Albania.

    So to sum it up I would say your m44 started as a late war production soviet m44. It was then lost/sold to the Chinese before/during the Korean War. The period during and after the Korean war is where the attempts to fix the stock were made.Then around the early 1960's, the Chinese gave it to the Albanians. There it sat in some Albanian arms depot until its importation into the US.

    I guess this was a roundabout way of verifying your theory in a way, but hopefully this information will help you.

    Source:
    752000 guns : http://www.chinauncensored.com/inde...albania-destroyed-11000-pieces-of-artilleries
    unclassified CIA report : https://www.cia.gov/library/readingroom/docs/esau-16.pdf
    Sino-Soviet Split : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sino-Soviet_split
    a supposed example of an albanian stocked m44 : http://7.62x54r.net/MosinID/MosinRareAlbIzh.htm
    Sino-Soviet military relations : https://www.jstor.org/stable/1035699?seq=1#page_scan_tab_contents
     

    lee2

    Banned
    BANNED!!!
    Oct 8, 2007
    19,012
    Coming from Albania, its quite possible your m44 has a type 53 bolt .
     

    tallen702

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Sep 3, 2012
    5,120
    In the boonies of MoCo
    I did some digging and this is the best I can come up with.
    The only source of m44s the Chinese would have had access to were ones left over from the red army occupation of Manchuria or the m44s that the Chinese would have to buy for the Korean war. (the type 53 began production towards the end of the Korean war). This would certainly explain all of the Russian parts on your rifle.

    The interesting part occurs during the 60's. Apparently the Chinese thought they could 1-up the soviets by claiming that Khrushchev had abandoned the "ideals of the revolution" and the Soviets were becoming more aligned with capitalism. The only other country that agreed with the Chinese were none other than Albania. This lead to a tentative alliance between the Albanians and the Chinese against teh Soviets and the rest of the Warsaw Pact. While this sounds crazy, I will link a declassified CIA report detailing the politics behind it.

    What is important for us is that during this time, the Chinese were supplying the Albanians with multiple forms of aid. I would say with high probability that your m44 was one of the 752000 guns delivered to Albania from China as a part of military aid. (the only source for this number comes from a Chinese blogger who claims they got their info from Chinese national archive which we can't access. So the number can't be verified but it is believable). This would explain the Chinese bolt and how it ended up in an import to the US from Albania.

    So to sum it up I would say your m44 started as a late war production soviet m44. It was then lost/sold to the Chinese before/during the Korean War. The period during and after the Korean war is where the attempts to fix the stock were made.Then around the early 1960's, the Chinese gave it to the Albanians. There it sat in some Albanian arms depot until its importation into the US.

    I guess this was a roundabout way of verifying your theory in a way, but hopefully this information will help you.

    Source:
    752000 guns : http://www.chinauncensored.com/inde...albania-destroyed-11000-pieces-of-artilleries
    unclassified CIA report : https://www.cia.gov/library/readingroom/docs/esau-16.pdf
    Sino-Soviet Split : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sino-Soviet_split
    a supposed example of an albanian stocked m44 : http://7.62x54r.net/MosinID/MosinRareAlbIzh.htm
    Sino-Soviet military relations : https://www.jstor.org/stable/1035699?seq=1#page_scan_tab_contents

    You sir, are frikken AWESOME! thanks for the info and all the citations!
     

    toolness1

    Ultimate Member
    Jan 5, 2014
    2,723
    BFE, Missouri
    So, I picked up one of the bottom-of-the-barrel M44s that AIM had a year or two ago. "Functioning with good bores but holy hell is the rest of it a mess" kind of deal. $99 was all it took, so I said "eff it!" and hit the buy button. It came in crusted in cosmo, mud, and rust. The stock was beat to hell with gouges, breaks, and splices galore. Heavy pitting on a few minor areas. One rear corner of the mag well, one of the barrel bands, a bit on the butt plate, but the rest of it actually cleaned up pretty well. Several good scrub-downs with soap and boiling water, some steam-cleaning for the hard-to-reach places, electrolysis treatment for the rust, and then a good thin coat of rem-oil with a thorough wipe-down for protection and the metal was good. The stock took a ton of steam cleaning to get the cosmo and dirt out, but eventually cleaned up halfway-decently. I haven't fired it yet, it just sits in the safe, and here's why and where I could use some help.

    It's a 1945 Izzy. There are no refurbishment/re-arsenal marks anywhere. The entire thing is matching except for the bolt. The entire action and all parts but the bolt are Russian, the bolt is Chinese. The inletting for the sling escutcheons (which are missing) is HEAVILY worn on one side from continuous rubbing by the sling. This tells me it saw heavy use. Lastly, the stock. All the splices are most definitely NOT birch. They do, however, look exactly like the chu wood used on my Type 53.

    The only thing that AIM could tell myself and the others who bought these is that they came buried in the bottom of a shipment of Norinco SKSs via Albania. All of them were the same. Some had the original Russian bolts in them but were usually mis-matched, all were non-refurbished, all had the non-birch chu-wood type splices in the stocks, heavy wear on the sling holes, etc.

    My speculation is that they were "gifts" from the USSR to Mao or Kim Il Sung at some point. I just can't think of any way to verify or debunk this theory. Anyone know of any way to go about it?

    Can you tell us about your electrolysis setup/procedure? I rounded up all the parts to built a electrolysis setup, but it's all sitting in a box still. Did you build your own or buy some kind of commercial model?
     

    aps410

    Member
    Dec 10, 2015
    48
    Howard County
    So is that the same story for the Chinese military SKS rifles that came in from Albania?

    The sino-soviet history of the type 56 sks is incredibly poorly documented. Bar finding a book on the matter, the best you will find is speculation on various forums. However, I can say with a high level of confidence that the story is the same as far as how Albania got a hold of a bunch of chinese type 56 sks rifles.
     

    tallen702

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Sep 3, 2012
    5,120
    In the boonies of MoCo
    Can you tell us about your electrolysis setup/procedure? I rounded up all the parts to built a electrolysis setup, but it's all sitting in a box still. Did you build your own or buy some kind of commercial model?

    Homemade version using a wallpaper paste trough for the barreled action. There are tons of how-to instructions online.
     

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