FTE - Caused by Ammo?

jonnyl · May 10, 2010

I've shot a couple thousand rounds through my mil-spec Springfield 1911 with virtually no problems. (I say virtually because I think there were a few that I chalked up to limp wristing).

The ammo has largely been WWB, but has even fed the smokey, dirty, cast bullet bulk pack stuff without an issue.

A few weeks ago I was at a bowling pin shoot and started getting FTE's. I had purchased a couple Chip McCormick 8 rnd mags and hadn't had a chance to use them before the pin match. Things went well in the beginning, then I started getting these FTE's and thought maybe I'd bent the extractor or something. I also suspected the spring pressure on the new mags was too much and causing problems. I should note that I switched to UMC mid match, but since I'd never had any problems with ammo I didn't see the correlation.

Anyway, I went to Cresap Saturday to try to diagnose the problem. One mag had 4/8 FTE's, but I was also getting several on my old SA mag. Then I switched to a box of Wolf ammo (never used it before). The gun ran flawlessly through all three mags.

The "bad" ammo was Remington UMC FMJ. I don't have any precise measuring tools (and really wouldn't know what to measure if I did!). But does that make sense to you guys that the ammo is causing the FTE's?

My solution will be to "not use UMC", but I'd like to understand what's going on if anyone has any ideas.

As always, Thanks!

Splitter · May 10, 2010

Dunno. I do know in 9mm the rounds are a bit shorter in OAL. There are definite dimensional differences between some manufacturers. Not sure if that is at all something that is giving you trouble though.

Splitter

Bullfrog · May 10, 2010

I'm far from an expert on anything firearms-related... but one thing did occur to me while reading your post. Maybe it's not a coincidence that it was wolf ammo that was working properly - I assume it is steel cased? If so the brass casings are going to expand more... maybe there is something causing the brass to stick in the chamber while the steel does not.

Any carbon buildup or other fouling in the chamber?

alucard0822 · May 10, 2010

You have at least 2 known variables, the mags, and different ammo that tend to introduce a lot of jams in 1911s. There are also a number of things the factory doesn't do a good job of when they build the pistols, they add up to make many 1911s ammo sensitive, jam prone, innaccurate, or wear prematurely. Bad spring rates, out of spec, or contacting parts at opposite ends of "spec", extractors that are not shaped particularly well, or tuned, rough breech faces and feed ramps, binding or poorly fit trigger group parts are all pretty common in even expensive 1911s, although they can be relatively inexpensive to adress, and the pistol can run very well once properly fitted.

It is tough to say which of these factor/s worked aggainst the current fit of parts, or if the mags, ammo or gun are out of spec, or incompatible. UMC ammo tends to be somewhat underpowered, loaded to odd lengths, and even the extractor groove shape can be different from most other ammo in the caliber, it is known to cause problems in some guns, while others run fine with it. Mags are also a known issue, some 1911s just like or hate some brands of mags, depending on how high they sit when engaged by the catch, the shape of the follower vs the feed ramp and bullet profile, even the exact mag and magwell dimentions, and their clearance seems to vary a lot from brand to brand.

smores · May 10, 2010

alucard0822 said:
You have at least 2 known variables, the mags, and different ammo that tend to introduce a lot of jams in 1911s. There are also a number of things the factory doesn't do a good job of wen they build the pistols, they add up to make many 1911s ammo sensitive, jam prone, innaccurate, or wear prematurely. Bad spring rates, out of spec, or contacting parts at opposite ends of "spec", extractors that are not shaped particularly well, or tuned, round breech faces and feed ramps, binding or poorly fit trigger group parts are all pretty common in even expensive 1911s, although they can be relatively inexpensive to adress, and the pistol can run very well once properly fitted.

It is tough to say which of these factor/s worked aggainst the current fit of parts, or if the mags, ammo or gun are out of spec, or incompatible. UMC ammo tends to be somewhat underpowered, loaded to odd lengths, and even the extractor groove shape can be different from most other ammo in the caliber, it is known to cause problems in some guns, while others run fine with it. Mags are also a known issue, some 1911s just like or hate some brands of mags, depending on how high they sit when engaged by the catch, the shape of the follower vs the feed ramp and bullet profile, even the exact mag and magwell dimentions, and their clearance seems to vary a lot from brand to brand.

+1. The 1911 is like a race car. When you get it right, they run beautifully but it can take work and there are a LOT of variables to consider if there are problems.

You can take it to a smith who specializes in 1911, or you can work on sorting it out yourself. M1911.org is a good resource.

mike_in_md · May 10, 2010

Recommend checking the extractor tension.

- Shake the gun gently to ensure that the extractor has enough tension on it to hold the round. A vigorous violent shake will not hold the round.

If the extractor doesn't hold the round you will need to tune it...a very easy process.

This extractor has good tension

jonnyl · May 10, 2010

Thanks for the thoughts and advice. Sounds like it's time to bust out the Dremel

I'm going to try the shake test, then I'll also go back to some non-Wolf, brass ammo and see how that goes. (If I can find some!)

It was clean when I went to the pin match, shot about 20 rounds of Winchester with no issues, then opened a new box of PMC and started seeing sporadic issues. By the time I switched to the Wolf I'd had about 70 rounds of PMC through it (with about 20 FTE's).

My sample size is pretty small, but it did run fine prior to the UMC with brass cased ammo, and ran fine after the UMC with the Wolf.

I've got about 20 rounds of UMC left, I'll save it till things are running smoothly (if it does) and re-introduce the UMC to see if it's a problem again.

Thanks again!

alucard0822 · May 10, 2010

A properly shaped and tuned extractor is vital to a 1911 functioning properly, guesstimating the tension, and adjusting on feel might be able to be accomplished by the best gunsmiths, but for me, and many others, it is about impossible to feel the difference between a 20 oz "weak" extractor, 24oz "good" extractor and 32oz "too heavy" extractor. Use an extractor gauge and a trigger pull scale to tension it precisely. It is a little figure 8 shaped peice of metal with holes in each end, you pull the 45acp end (they are double ended mine has 45ACP and 9mm/38 super ends) past the extractor on the breech face with the scale, and get a reading, and tune it accordingly. There are also some surfaces that need to be at sharp angles, some that need soft bevels, and some that should be polished. Tuning the extractor usually takes care of most ejection issues, and some of the more common feeding issues inherent with the design. There are other possible causes of failures to extract and stove pipes, but the extractor or springs are usually the culprit.

smores · May 10, 2010

FWIW, PMC 9mm would positively not cycle in my UZI. I didn't get one round to eject properly.

WWB and it runs like a top.

Ab_Normal · May 11, 2010

Can you describe the position of the case after the FTE - double feed, stovepipe, etc..

jonnyl · May 11, 2010

Ab_Normal said:
Can you describe the position of the case after the FTE - double feed, stovepipe, etc..

I was thinking about this some more last night. (not that I don't have a life :sad20:

)

The comments that UMC can be underpowered is what stuck with me, because the cases weren't staying in the chamber. They were drawn back then slammed forward without ejecting. So now I'm thinking the slide wasn't cycling far enough back to hit the ejector.

NateTheShake · May 11, 2010

jonnyl said:
I was thinking about this some more last night. (not that I don't have a life )

The comments that UMC can be underpowered is what stuck with me, because the cases weren't staying in the chamber. They were drawn back then slammed forward without ejecting. So now I'm thinking the slide wasn't cycling far enough back to hit the ejector.

Were the cases smashed on the breech at all? They'd have some marring and possibly crushing around the mouth of the case. If that's the case I've seen it many times when I start working up my reloads and the charge is still a little low.

Basically the case isn't creating enough pressure to fully cycle the slide. The slide starts to come forward before the case has fully ejected.

It could be that the UMC is underpowered for your pistol. One option is to switch to a different recoil spring (cheap fix) if you want to keep shooting lighter loads.

jerielg · May 11, 2010

jonnyl said:
I was thinking about this some more last night. (not that I don't have a life )

The comments that UMC can be underpowered is what stuck with me, because the cases weren't staying in the chamber. They were drawn back then slammed forward without ejecting. So now I'm thinking the slide wasn't cycling far enough back to hit the ejector.

I recently had a similar problem with my P226. I had several FTE with the Remington UMC and it wouldn't lock back the slide when the magazine was empty. I switched to WWB along with serveral boxes from other manufacturers and have had no problem since. I came to the conclusion that the ammo was underpowered and wasn't cycling the gun correctly.

Ab_Normal · May 11, 2010

jonnyl said:
I was thinking about this some more last night. (not that I don't have a life )

The comments that UMC can be underpowered is what stuck with me, because the cases weren't staying in the chamber. They were drawn back then slammed forward without ejecting. So now I'm thinking the slide wasn't cycling far enough back to hit the ejector.

What was the impact of the bullets on the target compared to other brands?

Biggie313 · May 11, 2010

well. If you are positive you did not limp wrist it, then I'd say its 75% ammo, 20% mag causing problem

jonnyl · May 11, 2010

Were the cases smashed on the breech at all? They'd have some marring and possibly crushing around the mouth of the case. If that's the case I've seen it many times when I start working up my reloads and the charge is still a little low.

Yep, the fronts were smashed up pretty good. (maybe that would have been good info for me to put in my original post

I switched to WWB along with serveral boxes from other manufacturers and have had no problem since. I came to the conclusion that the ammo was underpowered and wasn't cycling the gun correctly.

Sounds exactly the same - if I can't find any other brands I could try the lighter spring idea, but I'd rather just go back to the Winchester

at was the impact of the bullets on the target compared to other brands?

I wish I was good enough to tell the difference !!

I was just shooting at 10 yards most were in decently centered (for me), but I was stringing some down toward 7 o'clock. But I attribute that mostly to my being in a hurry because I wanted to get through several mags before the cease fire and was rushing it.

alucard0822 · May 11, 2010

jonnyl said:
I was thinking about this some more last night. (not that I don't have a life )

The comments that UMC can be underpowered is what stuck with me, because the cases weren't staying in the chamber. They were drawn back then slammed forward without ejecting. So now I'm thinking the slide wasn't cycling far enough back to hit the ejector.

You may also want to review how you lube the pistol, lack of oil/grease or too thin/thick can slow down the slide, as does dirt and a soft grip. Plenty of lube on the rails and locking lugs along with tightening your grip may just make the failures go away, being the slide will have the best chance of fully cycling. Heavy mag springs can also cause the top round to put more drag on the slide, where hotter loads have enough power to fully cycle the slide in less than perfect conditions, UMCs and some lighter weight loads might not.

This is a good article by Larry Vickers on lubing the 1911
http://vickerstactical.com/tactical-tips/lubricating-the-1911/

jonnyl · May 11, 2010

Great article Alucard! I usually use either breakfree, or Hoppe's. Are those good, or is there a good one I'm missing?

FTE - Caused by Ammo?

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