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  • MEGARMS

    KnowNothing
    Jun 3, 2012
    3,843
    Carroll County
    Not criticizing here as I have no idea what it would be like to be in this type of stressful situation. That said, was this situation handled within protocol by the LEO's? Seems that there were an awful lot of shots fired aimlessly when the perp was hiding behind the white van. Thank god there were no innocent bystanders shot and killed by friendly fire.
     

    pbharvey

    Habitual Testifier
    MDS Supporter
    Dec 27, 2012
    30,158
    I happen to know the first responding officer and that said officer emptied a 12 gauge through the front window of the bus at the shooter and the rounds didn't penetrate the windshield.

    Those who know understand why they didn't penetrate.

    Can you tell those of us who don't know?
    Does the county have certain shotguns set up with less than lethal?
     

    Name Taken

    Ultimate Member
    Feb 23, 2010
    11,891
    Central
    Can you tell those of us who don't know?
    Does the county have certain shotguns set up with less than lethal?

    That was not a less lethal shotgun. It would be orange.

    Unless the suspect had a 9mm the police were using .40 so not sure where the 140 9mm rounds come into play.

    The simple solution is to equip patrol officers with rifles and have them mounted in the car where they can be obtained in an easy manor.

    This is one video of the situation. Imagine what the other 3-5 officers on scene were doing for those being critical of this officers tactics. I'm sure compared to what some of the other videos would have shown this guy appeared to be a Seal Team Member.

    If some of the millions and millions of tax payers money that went to cloud space for the body camera was spent on equipping and training officers with patrol rifles this would have played out much differently.
     

    pbharvey

    Habitual Testifier
    MDS Supporter
    Dec 27, 2012
    30,158
    The cops should have advanced on the bus this would have been done in less than a minute.

    definitely

    41386DD000000578-0-image-a-3_1496892228255.jpg


    baltimore9n-3-web.jpg
     

    deerassassin22

    Active Member
    Apr 12, 2016
    700
    Littlestown, PA
    If they would have advanced on the bus the man would have not made it off. If they would have advanced on the van from two angles he would have been stopped since he can't shot from two sides at once. In the military this is support by fire basic tactics would have saved a ton of stray bullets
     

    pbharvey

    Habitual Testifier
    MDS Supporter
    Dec 27, 2012
    30,158
    The shooter has a full 180 degrees covered here. How does that two angle thing work? How about if the cops just launched an RPG into the bus? That would handle things.
    poster_ad01ca3e36a14d6e905cc2e0d68bde3a_61957530_ver1.0_320_240.jpg
     

    deerassassin22

    Active Member
    Apr 12, 2016
    700
    Littlestown, PA
    Yes 180 but is out numbered on 2 sides. And if you notice when he stops shooting to reload or when fire is retuned he ducks back into the bus once fire superiority is gained you move. And if the police shot at him from boy sides he will duck back into the bus due to the volume of fire.
     

    mopar92

    Official MDS Court Jester
    May 5, 2011
    9,513
    Taneytown
    Can you tell those of us who don't know?
    Does the county have certain shotguns set up with less than lethal?

    Standard buckshot is notoriously ineffective against windshield glass.
    One would need to use antimony or plated buckshot with a minimal spread and likely a 3" shell or preferably slugs to break through a windshield to address a threat behind it.

    Then there's the issue of training an officer to defeat the barrier first then the bad guy (IE aim at the base) and work your way up. Add in a dash of no onboard ammunition storage or supplemental equipment to store shells and it becomes a recipe for failure.

    Shotguns aren't a ray of death and they are truly an experts gun.
     

    mopar92

    Official MDS Court Jester
    May 5, 2011
    9,513
    Taneytown
    Yes 180 but is out numbered on 2 sides. And if you notice when he stops shooting to reload or when fire is retuned he ducks back into the bus once fire superiority is gained you move. And if the police shot at him from boy sides he will duck back into the bus due to the volume of fire.

    If the police shot at him from both sides there would be many more dead cops. Military and LE have two hugely different missions and skillsets. Military isn't in the business of losing (ever hear of a Pyrrhic victory?) and LE wants to go home at the end of a shift.
     

    deerassassin22

    Active Member
    Apr 12, 2016
    700
    Littlestown, PA
    There would be dead cops if they were on exact flanks yes agreed. While he was at the van would have been optimal. Yes we in combat arms don't believe in loosing but firefights are won using superior firepower (weapons) fire superiority (volume of effective fire) and maneuver. Military or not all them stray rounds go somplace they just don't vanish in a city. We all want to go home regardless if military or LE
     

    deerassassin22

    Active Member
    Apr 12, 2016
    700
    Littlestown, PA
    I also do t think this applies little drastic for this situation

    Pyrrrhic victory

    A very costly victory, wherein the considerable losses outweigh the gain, so as to render the struggle not worth the cost.
     

    Rich1911

    Ultimate Member
    Mar 8, 2012
    3,839
    I don't think a tourniquet was needed - from what I understand they should only be used as a last resort...
     

    Name Taken

    Ultimate Member
    Feb 23, 2010
    11,891
    Central
    The cops should have advanced on the bus this would have been done in less than a minute.

    The military would be using rifles in your advance the bus situation correct?

    You wouldn't have to "advance" on the bus if the officers had the equipment you reference in your military tactical wet dream.

    There's no M249, DMR's, M16, grenades, air strikes, or acceptable causality rates here.

    At what point do you want the officers on the street to communicate this tactical maneuver? How much training time as a group did these officers have? How many officers/detectives are involved that these officers have never met let alone worked with? What is the quality of officer working? Sadly all these things play a part.

    If these officers were equipped with rifles mounted in a way they could get to them easily this isn't even a conversation. That's the solution to any tactical issues here. Not expecting folks to advance on a bus when the guy is shooting from the front and both sides.
     

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