PSA PA10 GenII comments and observations.

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  • bfoosh006

    Active Member
    Aug 19, 2017
    145
    I see a lot of questions concerning the outstanding deals on the PSA PA10 GenII... I thought I'd post my findings over here as well.

    Please... bear in mind the threads will appear slightly "off" since I will not be transferring every comment




    So it finally got here... and I wasn't kidding about PSA building as they get orders !!

    Also.... as shipped, this is beyond a doubt, the most oil free rifle ever. Everything is bone dry... the best part about that is it makes finding any rough finish / binding parts easier. That is not to say the finish sucks, as a matter of fact the finish is as good as any of my AR's , Colt , BCM, Rainer Arms, etc.

    It just needs a little polishing in spots, and OIL... did I mention the lack of oil ? Lol

    Just as a reference ...Oil used is ALG Go-Juice.

    As for the polishing... in the past I have found a little burnishing, on various parts can greatly improve the "feel" ... and the PA10 was no exception.
    0000 Steel wool , the finest commonly available ( won't even scratch glass ) is what I use.

    When I say a little burnishing, I mean about a minutes worth.

    So far, parts minimally polished that show drastic noticeable improvement on the lower.
    The inside of the buffer tube... it was just rough and gummy (?)... after a spin down the buffer tube with a 0000 steel wool wrapped 12 gauge bore brush, it is much improved, then after a proper OILING on the interior of the tube and on the buffer and spring, it is nice and smooth.

    The disassembly pins.... burnished and lubed.. improved smoothness.
    Burnished the outside of the buffer tube as well.... much smoother.

    Now for the most interesting polished / burnished "part".... the magwell.

    One of the first things I tried was the mag drop and insertion...Magpul 10,20,25, and 25 M118 wouldn't drop free.. loaded or not loaded.
    A few minutes of burnishing the interior of the magwell, with little effort given to being through... resulted in all Magpuls dropping free, unloaded and loaded.

    Worked so well that I don't even feel the need to oil the magwell.............. just kidding, gave it a coat simply because it is bone dry.

    Again... very little effort to polish up working surfaces only... maybe 3 minutes.

    I should add, the PSA rubbery hand grip is pretty dang nice.

    Trigger is typical "MilSpec gritty"... I am going to try the USGI paracord trigger job on it because I want to see if it works. I will measure , with my cheap RCBS trigger pull gauge, the before and after weights.


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yeasg5HNbnw



    Straight out of the box, its heft is ok... I was expecting more heft / weight, given PSA's 10.4lb listing.... actual weight... 8 1/4lbs bone stock.

    The only way I could make it close to the advertised 10.4lbs, was by adding a fully loaded 25rd Magpul and the owners manual and magwell securely lock.


    I will be adding info as I get time... but so far I feel confident I will like this PA10.
     
    Last edited:

    bfoosh006

    Active Member
    Aug 19, 2017
    145
    OAL as delivered....collapsed, 37 1/8ish"... extended 40 1/2ish"

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    Various staking appears GTG.

    The buffer springs and tubes are same OAL as AR15 carbine parts.... but the .308 buffer is shorter and the 308 buffer spring is thicker.

    Buffers as shown... AR15 carbine buffer, PSA OEM PA10 Carbine buffer, KAK HvyWt .308 carbine buffer 5.5oz that I will be trying out ( I prefer my rifles to have mild recoil impulses. )

    Sorry about the posts being "cut up".... I am not used to time limits on posting.

    And I really need to say again.... this rifle was bone dry.... so prior to shooting your PA10.... at the VERY least, field strip and lube thoroughly.

    More to come.... including after the OEM configuration test firing, my add on's.
     

    bfoosh006

    Active Member
    Aug 19, 2017
    145
    More to come.... including after the OEM configuration test firing, my add on's..... PRS Gen 3 w/ rifle length buffer tube and HvyWt KAK 308 9.3oz rifle length buffer, LaRue Trigger, Tubbs Flatwire spring, maybe a SLR adjustable gas block, etc.

    I don't know if all those parts are compatible yet.
     

    bfoosh006

    Active Member
    Aug 19, 2017
    145
    QUOTE ....
    "So your putting a Rifle stock on , which one ?:thumbup:

    As far as that trick Trigger job , well ,nothing like putting extreme pressure on a weak sear engagement surface , your LaRue FCG will be a world of difference & you know it .:thumbup:

    Do you plan on a trip to the range before any modifications ? "



    Magpul PRS Gen 3.
    And as for the trigger trick... the PSA supplied trigger is pretty bad, so I figured why not try the trick...

    And yes I will fire for reliability and accuracy results prior to most changes... I will install the trigger and finish finessing / burnishing parts.

    I need to add ... the upper to lower fit is snug, but the pins themselves are slightly undersized.. not enough to really matter, but the fit could be better just from better fitting pins.

    Also , the charging handle is "dragging" in its channel... already have wear marks from the few dozen times I have hand cycled it. So I have to figure out how to "loosen" that up. Even the BCM Mod 5 drags... so it is a upper issue, not the charging handles. ( Even the PSA charging handle needed oil on the latch !? ... Haha.. )


    The marks from the charging handle concern me more... not aesthetically, but rather from a function perspective.

    I will post more photos, including the charging handle marks.

    Got that part figured out. The charging handle has no "tab" on the chamber end tip and With no tab ... the charging handle made the whole topside drag and bind.... combine that with the 2 outside guide tabs being snug it was turning the charging handle into a de-burring device.

    I suppose I could slightly file the 2 guide tabs and make the charging handle a tiny bit looser.... but whatever was removed and the BCM Mod 3 ( I said Mod 5 earlier.. oops ) is working fine.

    ( Or so I thought !! )
     

    bfoosh006

    Active Member
    Aug 19, 2017
    145
    I am going to gently polish the feed ramps.... they are scraping up the chambering rounds pretty good.

    I am also going to thoroughly clean the chamber, the manually ejected 168gr FGMM rounds.. while extracting good the rounds show obvious scratching / scuffing in places I consider odd.

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    bfoosh006

    Active Member
    Aug 19, 2017
    145
    I am going to get out some .7.62x51 and see how well they chamber, etc.... and try the Tubbs Flatwire spring, just to see if it would even fit / "function" in the PA10's AR15 carbine length buffer tube.

    Next issue.... I can live with this, but a standard Magpul Moe+ grip has a HUGE gap when mounted....I imagine any other AR15 grip will have the same issue.

    Most likely I will use some black RTV sealant or something and fill it in.

    The PSA supplied one fit nicely.

    Sorry if the photos aren't clear but the camera and I couldn't find the right lighting.

    NOTE... I changed the safety to a 45 degree ambi... so the photo's do not reflect the OEM PSA one.


    IMG_0827.thumb.jpg.4a2af15cadfdd9f61f95831f1a5792b4.jpg


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    bfoosh006

    Active Member
    Aug 19, 2017
    145
    I should have taken a photo of the black gunk that came out of the chamber... whatever packing oil / rust inhibitor they used on the barrels most certainly needed to be cleaned out to aid in smoother chambering.

    I "helped" barely round out the breach end of the chamber with a little polishing compound on a 20guage bore mop attached to a spare rod piece spun by a low rpm drill... more black gunk... and I can physically feel it is smoother now.

    The previous case marks ( 7.62x51 Fed. MSR had them as well ) are now eliminated... so more burnishing worked.

    So far ... IMHO, I think with a little QC on my end... any concerns are easily "fixed" with very little effort.

    Up until this point all these QC concerns could have been taken care of in one afternoon... so I am happy with all the results.

    Off to polish the feed ramps.

    Have a good evening !



    Oops ... meant to add, a good polishing of the interior of the buffer tube smoothed that up a LOT....
     

    bfoosh006

    Active Member
    Aug 19, 2017
    145
    I am trying to be methodical in the "observations".. I hope they aren't to long winded.

    Tonight's adventure was cleaning the barrel.... all I can say is wow... it was filthy.

    I decided to try a simple 4-6 breach end scrub with a bronze bore brush and just the Go Juice first....

    This is what wiped out on the first patch from JUST that light scrub....

    Sooo.... be SURE to clean the virgin barrel prior to firing !!


    IMG_0836.thumb.jpg.0412bdea70a80788cbf33c326e8b07cf.jpg



    I have decided to for-go the feed ramp polishing until after the first firing.

    If the feedramps have any issues , then I will try to polish them. ( I do want to see if the OEM configuration is "ok" )


    Next, I am going to swap in the LaRue Trigger... ultimately I will want it in there so why not benefit from it now.

    I am still going to do the trigger trick on the PSA trigger.... just as soon as I find my trigger gauge !?

    I am not going to remove the second "O Ring" .. yet.... So far, manual feeding has been fine from a full 25rd Magpul after the various polishing.

    The Tubbs Flatwire recoil spring fit "better" then the OEM PSA one.... I say better only because it slightly narrowed the overtravel gap between the buffer face and the bolt stop.... OEM distance was about 1/4" and the Tubbs is 3/16"... IMHO 1/4 " is slightly to much, and can lead to bolt stop breakage. My 9MM Colt pattern PCC has proven that.... I can always resort to the quarter/s in the end of the buffer tube if need be.

    So.... tomorrow will be the test firing.

    I will have the PA10 in its OEM configuration for all intents and purposes... grip changed, trigger, Lantac brake are the only part changes done so far.


    I will also try out the heavier 5.5oz shorty buffer, The Tubbs Flatwire, A Tubbs Carrier Weight System ( combined and separately ).. and possible remove an o-ring from the extractor if needed.

    Test firing will be scoped and 100yds.



    Later I will change to the PRS stock and possibly an SLR adjustable gas block.

    Wish me luck !!
     

    bfoosh006

    Active Member
    Aug 19, 2017
    145
    Ok... everyone gets three guess how many issues I had....

    I had zero issues

    No feeding issues, no extraction issues, no tight magwell issues... Zero.. nothing.

    I fired at least 300rds, and 20ish makes / brands , and weights from 130-175gr.

    I am happy with my purchase, at this point I would recommend one of the PSA PA10's to anyone... I will add, seriously, clean the thing, and lube everything.

    I will be adding the SLR adjustable gas block as well as the Magpul PRS stock. I believe it "kicks" more then needed.

    Ejection was bouncing out at the 1:30, smacking the case deflector each time with all the brands of ammo.



    Washguy...

    I did try the KAK 5.5oz ( ? ) buffer and it helped very slightly.... but if I did have the wrong .308 carbine buffer spring then the results could be skewed.
    I did also try the Tubbs Flatwire with the heavy KAK..and the Tubbs CWS ( adds even 4.6oz more ) ... still ejecting hard forward... no real noticeable difference.



    After my photos finally come through... I will post photos of the various groups... please not judge the round counts in the various groups... I frankly didn't think the day would go so smoothly, so my "plans" changed and I adjusted as needed.

    So some of the groups are 7-8 rds, some are 10, some are 20.... and frankly, some are so poor ( SSA ammo ) that I had a heck of a time figuring out where the shots were even hitting !
     

    bfoosh006

    Active Member
    Aug 19, 2017
    145
    I've got a large assortment of buffer springs and buffers from my 9mm blowback follies ... so I might try the Orange in the PRS stock.



    Washguy , Thank you for the suggestion... I will try it.

    I am kind of leaning toward as light a spring and buffer with the SLR adjustable gas block to help counter any muzzle dip from the extra power spring and BCG/ buffer mass.... when I tried the heavy spring and buffers in the 9MM Carbine, the muzzle dip was very noticeable.... so I would think the same would hold true here... we will see.



    Welp.... the KAK heavy rifle length buffer ( 9.3oz ) showed up today as well !!

    I will be swapping over to the Rifle length stock asap.... and firing again tomorrow.

    Another side note... if you are considering a B.A.D. bolt release lever.... forget it... the is not enough room between the upper and the paddle for the BAD lever.
     

    bfoosh006

    Active Member
    Aug 19, 2017
    145
    Posted July 9



    Various ammo accuracy results... OEM stock pretty much sucks for reasonable bench shooting, IMHO.

    And the recoil with it being overgassed is not helping ... so use your best bench techniques if you are going to stick with it being overgassed.

    I am confident, that after changing to the SLR adjust. gas block and the Magpul PRS...it will be "easier" to achieve better groups.

    Rifle configuration when these groups were fired...( So I remember ) OEM parts...Carbine buffer system, buffer spring, gas system, upper, lower, BCG, barrel.

    Add-ons... KAK 5.5 oz, LaRue trigger, Magpul MOE+, Primary Arms 4-14 scope, tried the Tubbs Flatwire, and used the Tubbs CWS.

    OEM various groups..... First the ugly...the red pasters are right at 1 inch

    In order as they appear..

    Black Hills 175gr TMK..

    ZQI Ball FMJ .... dismal accuracy

    CBC/ Magtech Ball FMJ

    SSA Accubond 165gr... NOTE the much smaller group is not part of the SSA. the bigger then my hand group is the SSA... including the 2 out in the black pasters !!


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    bfoosh006

    Active Member
    Aug 19, 2017
    145
    Crap... I forgot... 100yds, benched, scoped Primary Arms 4-14 x 44, bagged front and rear, reasonably slow steady fire.



    Win. 147gr Ball FMJ

    Eagle Eye 175gr SMK... ( way to hot of a load, I could feel it, and the brass case head showed nasty smears etc. )

    Black Hills 168gr SMK Moly coated.... not bad for 25+ year old ammo.

    Hornady TAP ELD Match 168gr

    Hornady TAP ELD Match 168gr "AR"


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    bfoosh006

    Active Member
    Aug 19, 2017
    145
    FGMM 168gr SMK

    GGG 146gr Ball 2013 production

    MEN Ball FMJ

    Hornady Steel Match 155gr... Lacquered

    FGMM 168gr again


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    bfoosh006

    Active Member
    Aug 19, 2017
    145
    1983 Hirt surplus Ball FMJ

    Fed. M118 LR 175gr SMK

    Aus. Outback 165gr SGK SP

    Aus. Outback 168gr SMK


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    bfoosh006

    Active Member
    Aug 19, 2017
    145
    PMC XTAC 168gr Match

    Fed. XM80

    Fed 130gr OTM

    FGMM 168gr rapid fire ( as fast as comfortable , and back "on" aiming point. )

    PMC XTAC Ball FMJ


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    bfoosh006

    Active Member
    Aug 19, 2017
    145
    BTW... this is what it looks like now. Current weight... 12 1/4lbs as pictured.

    IMG_2400.thumb.JPG.bea0466a2c23a03ca50d00aff0b65a7e.JPG


    I am going to not include the older BH... simply because it is older, and who knows if the current production shoots as well from this rifle.

    I still have numerous other .308 / 7.62x51 I will try, I only had those on hand at the moment.

    IMHO...
    The Hornady 168gr ELD Match easily shot its group.
    The Hornady SM 155gr seems like a good low-cost to accuracy round
    And the Hirtenberg is certainly worth checking more thoroughly.


    QUOTE...


    "That's an impressive plethora of flavors you got.

    How was the fit between the upper and lower on your's? "



    Thanks.. I am a ammo whore. I feel compelled to try some of everything in case I am missing out ! Lol

    For that matter... If you guys are interested in a LOT of factory ammo chrono'd data for 16" 9MM , 16" & 20" Ar15...Let me know.

    I am more then happy to share.


    My fit is very acceptable... but I am going to snug it up with some of the X-Shims... I have used them before on AR15's, but had to order some for the PA10.
    I realize most people say upper to lower fit doesn't matter... but that makes no sense to me.... IMHO that is like saying a loose stock to action doesn't matter.

    http://varmintlight.com/x-shim-kits/
     

    Clifjr

    Active Member
    Feb 2, 2014
    966
    Germantown
    I am going to get out some .7.62x51 and see how well they chamber, etc.... and try the Tubbs Flatwire spring, just to see if it would even fit / "function" in the PA10's AR15 carbine length buffer tube.

    Next issue.... I can live with this, but a standard Magpul Moe+ grip has a HUGE gap when mounted....I imagine any other AR15 grip will have the same issue.

    Most likely I will use some black RTV sealant or something and fill it in.

    The PSA supplied one fit nicely.

    Sorry if the photos aren't clear but the camera and I couldn't find the right lighting.

    NOTE... I changed the safety to a 45 degree ambi... so the photo's do not reflect the OEM PSA one.


    IMG_0827.thumb.jpg.4a2af15cadfdd9f61f95831f1a5792b4.jpg


    IMG_0828.thumb.jpg.219a9af9eab9e397ee7713a048d10926.jpg

    For your Magpul grip with the gap, they have this. * NOTE: This TYPE 1 Kit fits all AR15/M4's as well as many 7.62x51 variants such as the Aero Precision M5 308, CMMG MK3, CORE Rifle Systems CORE30, HK 417/MR762A1, LWRCI REPR, Mega Arms MATEN, POF P-308, Ruger SR-762, and SIG716.
    The TYPE 2 Kit uses taller backstraps for optimized fit with certain 7.62x51 receivers such as the Armalite AR-10A/B/T, DPMS LR308, KAC SR25, LaRue OBR, LMT .308 MWS, Palmetto PA10, and S&W M&P10.
    In general, the TYPE 1 Kit will fit most all 7.62x51 AR lower receivers but there may or may not be a gap between the backstrap's 'beavertail' and the receiver. This gap is purely aesthetic and will not affect function.
    So you would need a type 2 kit like this one. https://www.magpul.com/products/miad-gen-1-1-grip-kit-type-2
    I got one on my DPMS LR10 and it fits good with no gap.
     

    bfoosh006

    Active Member
    Aug 19, 2017
    145
    Ok... finally got some time to install the SLR adjustable gas block ... easy job, Right ?

    I bought the dimpling jig, so truthfully the SLR block install should be very easy.....

    Enter PSA's Freefloat tube barrel nut and the PSA gas tube..... ( pics will follow )

    I haven't built a lot of AR's , but, I do know the barrel nut should NOT force the gas tube into the uppers gas tube "hole" top portion.
    The gas tube is in full contact with the front of the barrel nut... enough so that it has eroded / scrapped away the finish.

    Ultimately, IMHO it would have wore a hole / weak spot into the gas tube.... it has that much contact.
    The top portion of the gas tube end, where it engages the gas key, also shows more wear then the bottom with just my eyes.

    Also, I do know that you want the gas tube to move "somewhat" freely through the uppers hole. Any binding of the gas tube can affect overall / consistent performance and accuracy... ( you don't want ANY binding ) you really want the rifle to consistently return to battery the same way every time.

    The photo shows the spot where the contact is , the little wear spot... the larger edge wear is from me sliding the rail free.



    More photos will follow... at this point I am going to dremel down the area that has no contact with the rail and see how well the gas tube fits after that.

    IMG_0893.thumb.jpg.dc3a757fd0ca3e339ad1141da0d59430.jpg



    Oops... gas port was centered perfect with the gas block... as near as I can tell minimum gas port size is .0725+.

    No barrel dimpling, just screwed tight.
     

    bfoosh006

    Active Member
    Aug 19, 2017
    145
    QUOTE ...

    "Gas Tube should not touch , as you have said , get to it with the Dremel ! "



    Normally I wouldn't dremel but it is a cheap aluminum barrel nut and handguard.

    This is how close...notice how one end you can see light through... and the other end you cannot.
    I ended up having to shave the top its full length... whoopee !!

    I will post photos of the after the fix later. Hand assembled shows much better clearance


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    bfoosh006

    Active Member
    Aug 19, 2017
    145
    QUOTE....

    "
    I find it strange that the Gas Tube is hitting the Barrel Nut at all , it looks like the Barrel Nut is made larger Dia. on one end or the Gas Tube is bent or coming out of the Gas Block at an angle . There is another theory , the Threads on the Barrel Nut or the Upper Receiver are not right .

    I actually have a old , one piece HG/Barrel Nut all in one from back in the late seventies , made of Steel no less , made by Olympic Arms , that has bad threads & the whole HG once on the Upper is not centered with the Barrel . I have an Aluminum one on an AR15 which is perfect , they were the only type available back then for a Free Float HG .

    Some Gas Tubes on some of these HG's Barrel Nuts are really close because of the Fact of the size of the 308AR LR Barrel .

    Does that Gas Tube have a step down in Dia. where its hitting the Barrel Nut ?

    I would have Torqued the Barrel Down , marked the area where the Gas Tube is hitting & then removed the Nut & made a flat in that area or turn it down on a lathe . "



    Basically I did make a flat.
    And IMHO, I think it was really about the PSA gas block and gas tube .. after installing the SLR block and a higher quality gas tube the clearance is much better.

    Yes the gas tube has a slight step down.

    Kind of excited to try the adjustable gas block.

    I will also try the heavy 9.3oz buffer with the gas block fully open to mimic the OEM configuration... and adjusted lower.

    I hope the standard rifle buffer works best, ( with the SLR block ) since there is no reason to have a lot of mass banging around

    So much better, that I have to wonder if the gas tube cant was also involved in the original PSA charging handle binding problem !?
    I will check later to see if the PSA charging handle and BCG no longer binds up so bad.

    Next... the bolt catch paddle is banging the upper ...

    Dremel time for the back side of the paddle !!


    IMG_0904.thumb.jpg.b481eb809939db8155bee99a43a569f3.jpg
     

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