Cardin and Cummins are pushing $$ for "local" witness protection

danb · Dec 9, 2015

http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/ma...tness-protection-programs-20151209-story.html

The measure would set aside $150 million in federal grants to establish the programs. Witness intimidation has long been an issue in the Baltimore City judicial system.

That is over $425,000 per murder in Bodymore.

Or, we could allow people their constitutional rights. Much cheaper. And no risk of running out of other peoples money.

mxrider · Dec 9, 2015

And how about taking that $150 million to increase police salaries and hire more officers so we can get the bad guys off the freaking street!

StantonCree · Dec 9, 2015

No that's actually a great idea!! Witness programs are currently a JOKE!!! Its nothing like what you see on TV. The way it will be implemented is going to end up being a joke though.

danb · Dec 9, 2015

My 2 cents is that all money to Bodymore should be quid pro quo: They can have money if they fix their government, and recognize people's constitutional rights.

Bodymore already wasted $20 mil on the riots, and $10 mil on F** free garbage cans, and a couple mil in misc sh** like speed cameras, and wants to spend another $2.5 mil on outside counsel for the DOJ probe. Yes, $10 million of free *** garbage cans. I kid you not. http://www.abc2news.com/news/region/baltimore-city/baltimore-mayor-spends-10m-for-new-trash-cans

I love the mayor's line about how it wont cost city residents a thing.

They would have a lot of money if they were not busy wasting it on stupid crap.

So, no more money until they reform.

MDFF2008 · Dec 9, 2015

Honestly with some of these gangs, carrying wouldn't be enough. These gangs don't come at you one on one, they come at you in groups, from cars, laying in wait.

I'm all for carry, and I think it would help, but some of these big time gangs, you just gotta get the person far away.

Brooklyn · Dec 12, 2015

gprimr1 said:
Honestly with some of these gangs, carrying wouldn't be enough. These gangs don't come at you one on one, they come at you in groups, from cars, laying in wait.

I'm all for carry, and I think it would help, but some of these big time gangs, you just gotta get the person far away.

No..you need to setup a counter assault and take care of business..

A gang is a paramilitary organization engaging in a act of insurrection. Take care of business or allow the insurrection to destroy the rule of law and destabilize your government.

Its that simple. As many failed states have discovered.

I bet we join them.

danb · Dec 12, 2015

Brooklyn said:
No..you need to setup a counter assault and take care of business..

A gang is a paramilitary organization engaging in a act of insurrection. Take care of business or allow the insurrection to destroy the rule of law and destabilize your government.

Its that simple. As many failed states have discovered.

I bet we join them.

I think you are too late. See: Baltimore.

Muleskinner · Dec 12, 2015

This is probably illegal...you cannot coerce or bribe someone to testify against another person. I don't want my tax dollars going for this...What they need to do is force Judges to actually put criminals in prison and allow law abiding citizens to carry to defend themselves...(yeah I know there are a LOT of prohibited people living in Baltimore...sucks to be them)

Brooklyn · Dec 12, 2015

danb said:
I think you are too late. See: Baltimore.

quite. But there's still time for the rest of the US.

porscheguy · Dec 15, 2015

mxrider said:
And how about taking that $150 million to increase police salaries and hire more officers so we can get the bad guys off the freaking street!

The money would be better spent building a wall around Baltimore. So many of their residents seem to enjoy confinement anyway.

MDFF2008 · Dec 15, 2015

Muleskinner said:
This is probably illegal...you cannot coerce or bribe someone to testify against another person. I don't want my tax dollars going for this...What they need to do is force Judges to actually put criminals in prison and allow law abiding citizens to carry to defend themselves...(yeah I know there are a LOT of prohibited people living in Baltimore...sucks to be them)

Can't put them in prison if you can't convict them because the witnesses refuse to testify.

traveller · Dec 15, 2015

Even if the feds get involved and put someone into witness protection, something like 60% blow their cover and return to the hood they came from.

MS13 built a presence in NoVa in the early 2000s. At some point, the feds got the 18 year old girlfriend of one of the big-wigs to testify against him. They shipped her off to Minnesota to keep her alive. She got bored, started to call her old homeys and returned to NoVa. Some of her jailed boyfriends buddies took her on a fishing trip, you know to get her mind off the stressful situation..... She didn't know that she was going to be turned into bait.

It's seemingly only the mafiosi who make good use of witness protection.

KevinK · Dec 15, 2015

traveller said:
Even if the feds get involved and put someone into witness protection, something like 60% blow their cover and return to the hood they came from.

MS13 built a presence in NoVa in the early 2000s. At some point, the feds got the 18 year old girlfriend of one of the big-wigs to testify against him. They shipped her off to Minnesota to keep her alive. She got bored, started to call her old homeys and returned to NoVa. Some of her jailed boyfriends buddies took her on a fishing trip, you know to get her mind off the stressful situation..... She didn't know that she was going to be turned into bait.

It's seemingly only the mafiosi who make good use of witness protection.

(the late) Henry Hill might disagree.

Z_Man · Dec 15, 2015

traveller said:
Even if the feds get involved and put someone into witness protection, something like 60% blow their cover and return to the hood they came from.

MS13 built a presence in NoVa in the early 2000s. At some point, the feds got the 18 year old girlfriend of one of the big-wigs to testify against him. They shipped her off to Minnesota to keep her alive. She got bored, started to call her old homeys and returned to NoVa. Some of her jailed boyfriends buddies took her on a fishing trip, you know to get her mind off the stressful situation..... She didn't know that she was going to be turned into bait.

It's seemingly only the mafiosi who make good use of witness protection.

you can't fix stupid....

Z_Man · Dec 15, 2015

the only true way to reduce the power and prevalence of the gangs is to hit them in their money. the gangs make ridiculous amounts of money. if you can cut the revenue streams they will lose their power over time. we know what business they run in, we need to disrupt their markets. they have no competition other than other gangs (thus the violence) for moving drugs, people (prostitutes, street thugs, mules etc), illegal arms, money laundering, "protection". they also run legitimate businesses, usually businesses in the local sector.

if we (as a society) can cut their profits in half, we will remove their stranglehold on lower class neighborhoods. This is the failure of the war on drugs, because it has driven the price up significantly of the drugs, and the demand of drugs is pretty constant, and the users will pay whatever they are charged for their fix. if the price of drugs was reduced to the point where it wasn't as rewarding, you would have less incentive for new member recruiting, less incentive to kill and die for your "family".

making 50k+ a week tax free is a hell of an incentive to shoot up the block and peddle the shit to the addicts.

MaxVO2 · Dec 15, 2015

Z_Man said:
the only true way to reduce the power and prevalence of the gangs is to hit them in their money. the gangs make ridiculous amounts of money. if you can cut the revenue streams they will lose their power over time. we know what business they run in, we need to disrupt their markets. they have no competition other than other gangs (thus the violence) for moving drugs, people (prostitutes, street thugs, mules etc), illegal arms, money laundering, "protection". they also run legitimate businesses, usually businesses in the local sector.

if we (as a society) can cut their profits in half, we will remove their stranglehold on lower class neighborhoods. This is the failure of the war on drugs, because it has driven the price up significantly of the drugs, and the demand of drugs is pretty constant, and the users will pay whatever they are charged for their fix. if the price of drugs was reduced to the point where it wasn't as rewarding, you would have less incentive for new member recruiting, less incentive to kill and die for your "family".

making 50k+ a week tax free is a hell of an incentive to shoot up the block and peddle the shit to the addicts.

*****50k+ a week is not much money if it has to be split up amongst 250 people peddling the drugs or whatever. This is why most drug dealers and peddlers of this stuff live with their mom or grandma, have crappy guns, and have no dental insurance for their grills, nor dividend producing mutual funds.

The guys at the very top might be making money, but the mid-level and street level thug (yes, I said thug/entrepreneur) make less than you might think. There's a lot of research out on this and few drug dealers are living the high life - most make a bit more than minimum wage but at far greater risk of imprisonment, injury, death, etc...

I grew up in a bad neighborhood (Langley Park..) with gangs, and drug dealers and a few of them had a nice blinged out car and some nice outfits, but no real wealth to speak of. Admittedly, they did have lots of girlfriends, baby mommas', and uhh... horizontally accessible women around. I had to pretty much wait for any of that, until I got into college and out of it with a marketable skill...

I don't have any answers, other than building more prisons and making sure people in them serve their entire sentence, with hard labor, and no conjugal visits, cable TV, and that death sentences are carried out swiftly, and without the ridiculous appeals process that allows folks on death row to basically die of old age versus ole' Sparky, the needle, or firing squad. I do NOT want to mention hanging, lynching, or stringing up a convicted death row inmate as a means of death due to the obvious and reprehensible racist connotations associated with such said activity, even if the person is not a minority, endangered species, or contributor to global warming by means of exhalation of CO2. :rolleyes:

traveller · Dec 15, 2015

MaxVO2 said:
The guys at the very top might be making money, but the mid-level and street level thug (yes, I said thug/entrepreneur) make less than you might think. There's a lot of research out on this and few drug dealers are living the high life - most make a bit more than minimum wage but at far greater risk of imprisonment, injury, death, etc...

I can only shake my head when I hear the trope about how all those young men have the option of making 'easy money selling drugs' vs. a working a 'minimum wage job'. It usually comes from do-gooders who dont understand the accounting concept of 'cost of goods sold' and 'overhead'. A street level dealer may sell hundreds worth of dope every day, but after bailbondsman installments, lawyers fees and cost of merchandise to his wholesaler, his take-home is quite limited and he would probably be better off working for tips at the Chesecake factory. If drug dealing was so profitable, the dealers would only work 10 days in Baltimore and spend the rest of the month on their yacht in Fort Lauderdale.

Minuteman · Dec 20, 2015

MaxVO2 said:
*****50k+ a week is not much money if it has to be split up amongst 250 people peddling the drugs or whatever. This is why most drug dealers and peddlers of this stuff live with their mom or grandma, have crappy guns, and have no dental insurance for their grills, nor dividend producing mutual funds.

The guys at the very top might be making money, but the mid-level and street level thug (yes, I said thug/entrepreneur) make less than you might think. There's a lot of research out on this and few drug dealers are living the high life - most make a bit more than minimum wage but at far greater risk of imprisonment, injury, death, etc...

I grew up in a bad neighborhood (Langley Park..) with gangs, and drug dealers and a few of them had a nice blinged out car and some nice outfits, but no real wealth to speak of. Admittedly, they did have lots of girlfriends, baby mommas', and uhh... horizontally accessible women around. I had to pretty much wait for any of that, until I got into college and out of it with a marketable skill...

I don't have any answers, other than building more prisons and making sure people in them serve their entire sentence, with hard labor, and no conjugal visits, cable TV, and that death sentences are carried out swiftly, and without the ridiculous appeals process that allows folks on death row to basically die of old age versus ole' Sparky, the needle, or firing squad. I do NOT want to mention hanging, lynching, or stringing up a convicted death row inmate as a means of death due to the obvious and reprehensible racist connotations associated with such said activity, even if the person is not a minority, endangered species, or contributor to global warming by means of exhalation of CO2.

traveller said:
I can only shake my head when I hear the trope about how all those young men have the option of making 'easy money selling drugs' vs. a working a 'minimum wage job'. It usually comes from do-gooders who dont understand the accounting concept of 'cost of goods sold' and 'overhead'. A street level dealer may sell hundreds worth of dope every day, but after bailbondsman installments, lawyers fees and cost of merchandise to his wholesaler, his take-home is quite limited and he would probably be better off working for tips at the Chesecake factory. If drug dealing was so profitable, the dealers would only work 10 days in Baltimore and spend the rest of the month on their yacht in Fort Lauderdale.

Excellent discussion. I agree.

Watch this, it will help you to help others:

https://www.ted.com/talks/steven_levitt_analyzes_crack_economics?language=en

Cardin and Cummins are pushing $$ for "local" witness protection

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