reflex dot size

I picked up a Shield SMSC-4moa for a compact pistol ($200 NIB)
The dot is "underwhelming", I should have held out for an elusive 8moa, or the Holosun 507K with the 32moa circle. but the holosun does not have auto adjust brightness.

The search continues

What was the issue?

I have a FF3 with an 8MOA dot, and while I think there's SOME advantage to a big dot like that in certain circumstances (Steel Challenge coming to mind), I've never really felt like I was much faster or slower with the ~3MOA dots I put on the rest of my guns. I also felt as if the 8MOA dot made it harder to shoot certain things past about 25yds.

Will admit I like the 507K I have riding on my optics 1911, though.

The dot is real small to my eyes,, it took a while to see that it was there on the lens.
Also, it was just slightly "dim" with the auto adjust,, I wish that had a "gain" adjustment with the auto adjust.

It is going on a Micro compact Hellcat,, I dont need precision out to 50 yards, or even 25 yards,, more like quick line up on 20 feet.
I'll mount it up and give it time,, but holding it in my hand I had to "look" for the red dot

erwos said:

What was the issue?

I have a FF3 with an 8MOA dot, and while I think there's SOME advantage to a big dot like that in certain circumstances (Steel Challenge coming to mind), I've never really felt like I was much faster or slower with the ~3MOA dots I put on the rest of my guns. I also felt as if the 8MOA dot made it harder to shoot certain things past about 25yds.

Will admit I like the 507K I have riding on my optics 1911, though.

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From what I read, the 507 has auto adjust, but the 507K does NOT?
Is the 1911 a defensive gun? or range gun that you have time to adjust brightness?

erwos said:

What was the issue?

I have a FF3 with an 8MOA dot, and while I think there's SOME advantage to a big dot like that in certain circumstances (Steel Challenge coming to mind), I've never really felt like I was much faster or slower with the ~3MOA dots I put on the rest of my guns. I also felt as if the 8MOA dot made it harder to shoot certain things past about 25yds.

Will admit I like the 507K I have riding on my optics 1911, though.

Click to expand...

Slackdaddy said:

The dot is real small to my eyes,, it took a while to see that it was there on the lens.
Also, it was just slightly "dim" with the auto adjust,, I wish that had a "gain" adjustment with the auto adjust.

It is going on a Micro compact Hellcat,, I dont need precision out to 50 yards, or even 25 yards,, more like quick line up on 20 feet.
I'll mount it up and give it time,, but holding it in my hand I had to "look" for the red dot

Click to expand...

Some of my observations on red dots and using them YMMV

If you are new to red dots, it will take longer, hunting for the dot. As you use it, it will become faster, and improve your presentation.

Auto brightness never works well. On most of mine, it also adds an auto shutoff timer, which I do not like, so I always set them manually and they stay always on.

On a simple dot, I go for the smallest dot I can find. I have the RMR in 1moa dot and 3.25 moa dot, among others. Looking through them right now, the 1moa dot looks much bigger than the 3.25. Reason is, I shot the 1moa in daylight last, and it is set brighter and looks bigger. The 3.25 was last used for dry practice in a dim room and is set to lower brightness. Now, under the same lighting conditions, the 1moa looks bigger. I imagine there is a limit to how small someone would want it based on their eyesight and use case.

I have found that I can make the smaller dots look bigger, with more brightness, so the smaller dot, to me, gives a much larger range of usefulness. Dot size, for simple red dots, seems to matter very little to me, the brightness matters more.

Using suppressor height sights with a cowitness is, to me, the best way to use a pistol red dot. It makes learning the red dot easier, and gives you a backup. I had been thinking about training for a red dot failure the day before it happened during a steel challenge course of fire. I didn't even realize the dot was missing until the 4th target. Because I have always had a cowitness, my sight picture did not change much, and I adapted without a conscious thought.

I wanted an RMSC sight, but I wont go for any plastic lenses. They have a glass one, but I went with the vortex instead.

Just some of my experiences, YMMV

I broadly agree with J5K. Auto-adjust is simply not a good proposition on a defensive or competition gun. For those purposes, you should be setting your optic to daylight bright and then replacing the battery regularly. The problem with auto-adjust on a defensive weapon is that it is a huge liability in a low-light situation where you need to use a flashlight. I've taken multiple low light classes, and my auto-adjust RMR became useless the second the flashlight hit the auto-adjust sensor. Can you work around that? Probably. But why bother if you've got the choice?

Thanks for all the responses.
Sounds like it is a choice between having auto adjust with a rare(?) occasion that it will adjust poorly due to varying light conditions,, or a manual adjust that you may have to stop an engagement to adjust the intensity of the sight?

That said,, I "think" I would prefer the "circle-dot" reflex reticle for a short range over a single small dot,,, even though I have never actually shot a handgun with a reflex sight (yet).
Is the Holosun 507K the only "compact" reflex with a circle-dot in the RMSC footprint? I would probably buy a 507K if it had a true RMSC base,, I don't feel like taking a dremel to my new Hellcat slide

Slackdaddy said:

Thanks for all the responses.
Sounds like it is a choice between having auto adjust with a rare(?) occasion that it will adjust poorly due to varying light conditions,, or a manual adjust that you may have to stop an engagement to adjust the intensity of the sight?

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If you adjust it to daylight brightness, you will not need to adjust the intensity of the red dot sight during an "engagement". This isn't 2010. We know what works on RDS-equipped pistols now in the real world. Auto-adjust, at least in its current format, is not the way to go. You can theory-craft this all you want, but it's not an open question anymore for the people who are really shooting these things at a high level.

That said,, I "think" I would prefer the "circle-dot" reflex reticle for a short range over a single small dot,,, even though I have never actually shot a handgun with a reflex sight (yet).

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Listen to the people who have, then; it's nearly all I've shot pistol-wise for the past three years. The circle dot is good, but there are pluses and minuses as the range extends past 25yds. I do know a GM who sometimes goes circle-only on Steel Challenge with good results, for that matter.

Is the Holosun 507K the only "compact" reflex with a circle-dot in the RMSC footprint? I would probably buy a 507K if it had a true RMSC base,, I don't feel like taking a dremel to my new Hellcat slide

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Yes. The 507K is considered to be the best of the bunch as well. This is a non-dremel option for you:
https://chpws.com/product/springfield-hellcat-to-holosun-407k-507k-adapter-plate

Thanks for your response,, I am taking it all in and listening to those with the experience,, as I have none, only preconceived ideas.

I def do not want to use a plate and loose the co-witness the 507K has with the stock Hellcat sights.

The "compact" reflex sights look to be in their infancy, I am sure there will many many more choices in 12 months.

I'll mount up the SMSC and get some much needed experience with it.

erwos said:

If you adjust it to daylight brightness, you will not need to adjust the intensity of the red dot sight during an "engagement". This isn't 2010. We know what works on RDS-equipped pistols now in the real world. Auto-adjust, at least in its current format, is not the way to go. You can theory-craft this all you want, but it's not an open question anymore for the people who are really shooting these things at a high level.


Listen to the people who have, then; it's nearly all I've shot pistol-wise for the past three years. The circle dot is good, but there are pluses and minuses as the range extends past 25yds. I do know a GM who sometimes goes circle-only on Steel Challenge with good results, for that matter.


Yes. The 507K is considered to be the best of the bunch as well. This is a non-dremel option for you:
https://chpws.com/product/springfield-hellcat-to-holosun-407k-507k-adapter-plate

Click to expand...

Slackdaddy said:

Thanks for your response,, I am taking it all in and listening to those with the experience,, as I have none, only preconceived ideas.

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No problem. You sound like me five years ago, and I learned a lot.

I def do not want to use a plate and loose the co-witness the 507K has with the stock Hellcat sights.

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I like backups for a concealed carry or duty weapon. I care less on a competition gun. Recoil had an interesting, if controversial, article on this subject recently. On the other hand, Woomer at Veil Solutions guy violently disagrees, and he's a very well regarded trainer. Read both articles and make an informed decision.

https://www.recoilweb.com/overrated-unneeded-back-up-iron-sights-170761.html
http://www.veilsolutions.com/thetype/back-up-iron-sights

I agree largely with all advice in this thread. Auto adjust is not considered useful for self defense by any of the main RDS handgun instructors I am aware of. Your dot should be set to daylight bright or brightest needed for whatever environment you experience throughout and battery changed regularly. Which is daylight bright 99.9% of the time. Biggest exception being actively doing an op under night vision, but those people know who they are already and aren’t the target audience of my post.

Second is that while large red dots are favored by some, typical advice is to go with the smallest dot you can see, or purchase an optic with an “assist” reticle if you are still learning handgun red dots. Holosun and primary arms seem to have cornered the market on this segment with the bullseye and Vulcan reticles.

Third (this should really be first but I am typing stream of consciousness) is that if you are hunting for the dot or using the sights to find or align the dot the majority of the time, you need to work on your presentation with dry fire. The whole point of a red dot is that you look at the target and place your aiming point (red dot) on the target. Red dots being aiming and target onto one focal plane and by using the sights at all IN TRAINING* you are creating bad habits that slow you down.

Fourth, learning to shoot pistol RDS can be frustrating. Readjust your expectations and try to enjoy the experience. Pistol mounted red dots, especially the ones that don’t have a bullseye or Vulcan style or reticle are very unforgiving of sloppy presentation. Try to take time and enjoy the process of improving your presentation while dry firing. Treat every mistake as a learning opportunity. The payoff will be that eventually you will find your presentation improves drastically for both red dots AND irons. If you do go with a bullseye reticle, once you get familiar with it try turning the bullseye off and just using the red dot when you specifically want to work presentation. It is less forgiving and will help you even if you use the full reticle when carrying. It is good training, take full advantage of it.

Fifth, this is all just basic advice to help you develop fundamentals. Once you have your fundamentals down, you may develop preferences that might run counter to basic advice. That is fine too, just remember that good training is an intentional process, and skipping parts of it to get to the final product is a recipe for failure. A great example being assist reticles. I use a holosun bullseye style reticle in competition and carry, but I turn it to just a red dot when working presentation UNLESS I am way off and need the assist reticle to help me figure out what I am screwing up. In other words I accept that I will have slop when under pressure and use the bullseye to give me the greatest possible chances of success, but in training I try to achieve the least slop possible.

*awkward shooting positions happen, especially in defensive situations and in that case your presentation can be sloppy or off, which is when BUIS come in handy for finding the dot if you screw up your presentation. Not saying this is a good habit to get into, but perfect is the enemy of good enough.

fbi_surveillance_van said:

Second is that while large red dots are favored by some, typical advice is to go with the smallest dot you can see, or purchase an optic with an “assist” reticle if you are still learning handgun red dots. Holosun and primary arms seem to have cornered the market on this segment with the bullseye and Vulcan reticles.

Click to expand...

This is just my opinion as a Holosun user, but I don't think the bigger dots and circle dots really do much to fix you off a sloppy draw. They DO discourage you from (easily) getting too picky about your sight picture, which can masquerade itself as speed. 1MOA was the hotness for a bit when shooting B8s at 25 was the thing cool kids did, but most of the high performing guys I've seen have reverted back to 2-6 MOA dots. Keep in mind that your iron sights are like 11+ MOA, and no one's ever claimed that irons can't work past 25.

I agree with all the rest of it. Dry fire, dry fire, dry fire.

I will say that I think window size is under-rated, especially on the vertical axis. Yes, with a proper grip, you should not lose the dot under recoil, or at least it should come back fast enough you don't notice. But when things go bad, more margin is handy.