Deer and 5.56 question

Erno86 · May 1, 2016

I personally would not go deer hunting with a 223. My preferred round is the 30-06. You should have a round that is capable of penetrating a trophy deer's body from ass to chest and I don't think that the 223 is capable of that {even with bonded bullets}. I would suggest using a rifle with premium bullets from 125 grains on up.

My aim point on that deer in the photo: Would be the far left leg, two thirds up from the bottom of the chest, for a left shoulder shot...miss high --- you hit the spine, miss low --- hit the heart, miss left --- you hit the liver, miss right --- you shoot the neck spine; if you're lucky.

ARMERICA · May 2, 2016

Blacksmith101 said:
New to the AR and hunting the first question would be how good a shot are you, the second how good at range estimation, third any experience following a blood trail, and last will you suffer from buck fever?

To answer your question is it possible? Yes it is possible but not a high percentage shot especially with your choice of ammunition and would not be recommended for a novice. A good recommendation would be to try to hook up with some experienced hunters and go hunting with them to learn the ropes. There is a lot more to ethical hunting than just killing an animal. Which shots to take and which to pass up have a lot of variables as you have seen posted and each situation is unique. Hunting is tough to learn without a mentor fortunately many experienced people are willing to pass on what they have learned. Have you ever field dressed a deer?

This is a great reply. I very much appreciate your approach to my question.
I will be seeking the advise of several experienced hunters and have no plans to give it a go without their being present for the exact reasons your mentioned.
I am a pretty good shot and I have not field dressed (or undressed) any animal before. I gave myself a nasty papercut once.

Seriously though - I already know I'm going to need to be taught everything, but what you said about knowing what shot to take and what to pass up on, that's exactly what I look forward to knowing.

DaemonAssassin · May 2, 2016

engineerbrian said:
Just get a 6.8 upper an call it a day. Federal Fusions 6.8 ammo turns their insides out!

My main hunting rifle is an AR in 6.8, and I won't go back to a "normal" hunting rifle. The AR has to many benefits

Beat me to it. I was going to recommend a 300BLK.

DaemonAssassin · May 2, 2016

ARMERICA said:
This is a great reply. I very much appreciate your approach to my question.
I will be seeking the advise of several experienced hunters and have no plans to give it a go without their being present for the exact reasons your mentioned.
I am a pretty good shot and I have not field dressed (or undressed) any animal before. I gave myself a nasty papercut once.

Seriously though - I already know I'm going to need to be taught everything, but what you said about knowing what shot to take and what to pass up on, that's exactly what I look forward to knowing.

Make sure you have a sharp knife and nitrile gloves for the "wet work".

Uncle Duke · May 2, 2016

OP, if a picture is worth a thousand words as they claim, then this might help you to visualize.

By extension, when you get into the ".223 for deer" yes or no debate, it becomes clear that some of these shots are a whole lot more demanding on both the cartridge and the shooter than others.

Hope this helps.

http://www.tnhuntingclub.com/hunting-tips/shooting-at-deer-from-different-angles/

outrider58 · May 2, 2016

engineerbrian said:
Just get a 6.8 upper an call it a day. Federal Fusions 6.8 ammo turns their insides out!

My main hunting rifle is an AR in 6.8, and I won't go back to a "normal" hunting rifle. The AR has to many benefits

DaemonAssassin said:
Beat me to it. I was going to recommend a 300BLK.

I dunno, I've kilt quite a few deer wit ma .223. In fact every deer I've shot with ma .223 dropped within eye sight.

outrider58 · May 2, 2016

Uncle Duke said:
OP, if a picture is worth a thousand words as they claim, then this might help you to visualize.

By extension, when you get into the ".223 for deer" yes or no debate, it becomes clear that some of these shots are a whole lot more demanding on both the cartridge and the shooter than others.

Hope this helps.

http://www.tnhuntingclub.com/hunting-tips/shooting-at-deer-from-different-angles/

Those are great graphics Uncle Duke. Pretty much proves my point in my first post here(#6).

lazarus · May 2, 2016

outrider58 said:
I dunno, I've kilt quite a few deer wit ma .223. In fact every deer I've shot with ma .223 dropped within eye sight.

Seriously not to poke, but was it your first time hunting deer? Or had you killed a few first and had a very good idea what you were doing. I am starting to consider myself both a very good shot (I can put 3 in 3in with irons and my muzzleloader at 100yds. I need more time with my .308 to really say my skill and the rifle's ability, but less than 2" at 100yds). I also am extremely confident on deer anatomy and I am a pretty relaxed shot on living targets (not prone to buck fever).

Still don't know that I'd be confident of a .223 on a deer yet. Doesn't mean I couldn't do it, but I'd rather be more confident in my weapon and projectile before pushing more towards a more challenging caliber. a first time in the field caliber is not something I'd consider a .223

outrider58 · May 2, 2016

lazarus said:
Seriously not to poke, but was it your first time hunting deer? Or had you killed a few first and had a very good idea what you were doing. I am starting to consider myself both a very good shot (I can put 3 in 3in with irons and my muzzleloader at 100yds. I need more time with my .308 to really say my skill and the rifle's ability, but less than 2" at 100yds). I also am extremely confident on deer anatomy and I am a pretty relaxed shot on living targets (not prone to buck fever).

Still don't know that I'd be confident of a .223 on a deer yet. Doesn't mean I couldn't do it, but I'd rather be more confident in my weapon and projectile before pushing more towards a more challenging caliber. a first time in the field caliber is not something I'd consider a .223

First time killing a deer was in Garrett Co. That was a few years back. I was hunting a ridge top in Harrington Manor/Garrett St. Forrest. It was with a 20ga. Mossy pump with a 4x Tasco scope. No, I didn't start shooting deer with ARs til maybe 12 years ago. I only take neck shots and broad side heart shots. They have to be precision shots, IE, standing still, relaxed, and broadside. These shot are always taken with a scoped rifle.

fabsroman · May 2, 2016

balttigger said:
As you can see, Remington makes a .223 bullet that is Maryland deer legal.

At 30 yards, with that angle, with the proper bullet, that deer is taking a neck shot and would be DRT. Next stop, the butcher.
Just remember to aim a tad high. If you are zeroed for 100 yards, you will be about an inch low at 30 yards.

Not necessarily true. You might be dead on at 30 yards. This is where it is important to shoot a lot with your rifle. The line of sight from a scope is lineal and starts above the muzzle. The trajectory of the bullet is curved. The bullet must actually pass above the lineal line of sight and then fall back down to the point of impact on the lineal line of sight.

http://www.pyramydair.com/blog/2007/10/why-are-there-two-zero-points-when-sighting-in-a-scope/

http://blog.beretta.com/convergence-why-your-zero-is-only-correct-at-two-distances

https://www.physicsforums.com/threads/bullet-drop-relative-to-line-of-sight.708576/

fabsroman · May 2, 2016

OP - if you have to ask the question, then you do not have the experience to make the shot. I think most have already alluded to this, but you need to know your ability and the ability of your equipment. Just because you are shooting a .338 Lapua does not mean you should take a 1,000 yard shot. Your ability might not be up to par with your equipment.

At 30 yards, I have no issue putting a bullet where it needs to be. Thing is, I'm not sure I would take that shot with a .223. I'm also not a big fan of neck shots. Just because I am not a fan of necks shots, does not mean they do not work. Lots wills swear by them. Lots will also swear by the .223. Neither the .223 nor the neck shot is for the novice out hunting deer. Neither leave much room for error. If you were out hunting with me on your first hunt and I was sitting next to you, I would be telling you to wait. I know, it is tough. I went through it with deer and with turkeys. When that tom came in and would not stop walking, the guy I was hunting with kept telling me to wait. I kept telling myself that I could bust that tom's head like a clay pigeon that I do all so often. I ended up watching that tom walk off. Sometimes, you just have to let them walk. Other times, you take the shot only to have to track them for a while and learn a hard lesson about your ability and/or your equipment's ability.

You will have your mistake moments if you do enough hunting. If somebody has never had a mistake moment, they have not hunted enough. No ethical hunter likes those mistake moments, so we practice and practice to make sure we know our equipment, we know our ability, and we can improve our ability.

Good luck hunting.

outrider58 · May 2, 2016

fabsroman said:
OP - if you have to ask the question, then you do not have the experience to make the shot. I think most have already alluded to this, but you need to know your ability and the ability of your equipment. Just because you are shooting a .338 Lapua does not mean you should take a 1,000 yard shot. Your ability might not be up to par with your equipment.

At 30 yards, I have no issue putting a bullet where it needs to be. Thing is, I'm not sure I would take that shot with a .223. I'm also not a big fan of neck shots. Just because I am not a fan of necks shots, does not mean they do not work. Lots wills swear by them. Lots will also swear by the .223. Neither the .223 nor the neck shot is for the novice out hunting deer. Neither leave much room for error. If you were out hunting with me on your first hunt and I was sitting next to you, I would be telling you to wait. I know, it is tough. I went through it with deer and with turkeys. When that tom came in and would not stop walking, the guy I was hunting with kept telling me to wait. I kept telling myself that I could bust that tom's head like a clay pigeon that I do all so often. I ended up watching that tom walk off. Sometimes, you just have to let them walk. Other times, you take the shot only to have to track them for a while and learn a hard lesson about your ability and/or your equipment's ability.

You will have your mistake moments if you do enough hunting. If somebody has never had a mistake moment, they have not hunted enough. No ethical hunter likes those mistake moments, so we practice and practice to make sure we know our equipment, we know our ability, and we can improve our ability.

Good luck hunting.

I just knew he wasn't gonna let us get away with five short sentences! :lol2:

Good post though.

fabsroman · May 2, 2016

outrider58 said:
I just knew he wasn't gonna let us get away with five short sentences!

Good post though.

5 short sentences, a medium length sentence, and 3 links. I cannot imagine me just posting 5 short sentences. What can be accomplished in 5 short sentences? I don't worry about what my post count is and I can type pretty quickly. Hence, I can give out a plethora of advice and opinion per minute.

That was 5 short sentences, until I decided to write this one. lol

Not looking for the "most posts per second award" or the "most useless posts in a year" award. Quality over quantity. lol

balttigger · May 2, 2016

fabsroman said:
Not necessarily true. You might be dead on at 30 yards. This is where it is important to shoot a lot with your rifle. The line of sight from a scope is lineal and starts above the muzzle. The trajectory of the bullet is curved. The bullet must actually pass above the lineal line of sight and then fall back down to the point of impact on the lineal line of sight.

http://www.pyramydair.com/blog/2007/10/why-are-there-two-zero-points-when-sighting-in-a-scope/

http://blog.beretta.com/convergence-why-your-zero-is-only-correct-at-two-distances

https://www.physicsforums.com/threads/bullet-drop-relative-to-line-of-sight.708576/

I looked at the ballistics for the ammo which showed a 150 yard zero and 0.4 high at 50 yards, plus ballistics from a few other similar rounds zeroed at 100 yards which show the round at 0.7-0.8 inch high at 50 yards and extrapolated.

Also as far as barrel length and energy goes, using the standard that M855 loses about 30.3 fps per inch of barrel length, the difference between a 24" barrel and MY 20" barrel is a loss of 121.2 fps; dropping it to 3,140fps and 1358 ft lbs of energy. Taking it down to a 16" barrel yields approximately 3020fps at 1256 ft lbs. Even dropping down to a 14.5" barrel would yield a muzzle velocity estimated at 2,975fps which gives you a Maryland legal 1219 ft lbs with the 62gr pill.

Personally, I only take neck shots because I am lazy and have trouble following blood trails, especially in low light. That said, there are numerous stories in outdoor journals of deer being taken with vitals shots; and this was BEFORE the invent of today's more modern bonded ammo....just plain ole soft points. All this talk of "gotta have at least a .243 but I don't use anything less than a .308/.30-06/.300RUM/whatever.....is pure bullsh....well. I have seen deer (after the fact) taken from 50 yards using a lowly .22WMR using a neck shot and was told they fell right where they were shot, and in several states, that would be legal.

Lastly, I don't know a single Game Warden that would give a moments grief with ammo that has a Maryland legal advertised energy. They aren't going to take the time to read the small print and there just aren't enough hunters using AR-15s for this to be something they would make a point to seek out. You use what you use, I will use what I use, we both put meat in the freezer.

fabsroman · May 3, 2016

balttigger said:
I looked at the ballistics for the ammo which showed a 150 yard zero and 0.4 high at 50 yards, plus ballistics from a few other similar rounds zeroed at 100 yards which show the round at 0.7-0.8 inch high at 50 yards and extrapolated.

Also as far as barrel length and energy goes, using the standard that M855 loses about 30.3 fps per inch of barrel length, the difference between a 24" barrel and MY 20" barrel is a loss of 121.2 fps; dropping it to 3,140fps and 1358 ft lbs of energy. Taking it down to a 16" barrel yields approximately 3020fps at 1256 ft lbs. Even dropping down to a 14.5" barrel would yield a muzzle velocity estimated at 2,975fps which gives you a Maryland legal 1219 ft lbs with the 62gr pill.

Personally, I only take neck shots because I am lazy and have trouble following blood trails, especially in low light. That said, there are numerous stories in outdoor journals of deer being taken with vitals shots; and this was BEFORE the invent of today's more modern bonded ammo....just plain ole soft points. All this talk of "gotta have at least a .243 but I don't use anything less than a .308/.30-06/.300RUM/whatever.....is pure bullsh....well. I have seen deer (after the fact) taken from 50 yards using a lowly .22WMR using a neck shot and was told they fell right where they were shot, and in several states, that would be legal.

Lastly, I don't know a single Game Warden that would give a moments grief with ammo that has a Maryland legal advertised energy. They aren't going to take the time to read the small print and there just aren't enough hunters using AR-15s for this to be something they would make a point to seek out. You use what you use, I will use what I use, we both put meat in the freezer.

This is always how the debate goes. Always.

Yes, the .223 can be used to kill deer. The .30-30 has taken more deer than anything else at some point in time. Might not hold true today, but it was the case in the 80's.

What rifle you use, what cartridge you use, and what shot selection you decide to take depends on a myriad of factors. I can run downstairs and pick up the Barnes, Nosler, Hornady, Lyman, and other reloading manuals on the shelf and quote you ballistics all day long too.

Last I checked, a deer's neck was wider than .7", so the entire .

Now, I tend to hunt wide open spaces where 400+ isn't uncommon. I use a .300 Win Mag and have taken shots out to 300 yards. If I had the talent, 1,000 yards would be possible on one farm I hunt. However, 300 is about what I am comfortable with.

If I was in the brush where shots are 50 yards or less, I'd think about using a .223.

This really comes down to personal opinion to a degree, and just because you saw or heard about something being done does not mean that is how it should be done. Christ, I can kill a deer with a .22lr right through the eye socket as long as it is looking right at me. I have heard of people using .22lr for neck shots because 1) it works and 2) it is economical when money is tight.

Is the .223 the optimal deer cartridge? If it was, we wouldn't be having this much debate about it. Suffice it to say, it works under the right circumstances.

Also, let's not confuse .223 with the AR-15. It can be used in bolt guns, single shots, etc. We might be mixing apples and oranges with that last paragraph of yours. Nothing wrong with using an AR-15. They are even chambered in .25 WSSM nowadays, which would be a very fine cartridge for deer sized game.

Next up, whether .22 WMR should be used for deer hunting. That makes for a nice debate too.

balttigger · May 3, 2016

fabsroman said:
This is always how the debate goes. Always.

Yes, the .223 can be used to kill deer. The .30-30 has taken more deer than anything else at some point in time. Might not hold true today, but it was the case in the 80's.

What rifle you use, what cartridge you use, and what shot selection you decide to take depends on a myriad of factors. I can run downstairs and pick up the Barnes, Nosler, Hornady, Lyman, and other reloading manuals on the shelf and quote you ballistics all day long too.

Last I checked, a deer's neck was wider than .7", so the entire .

Now, I tend to hunt wide open spaces where 400+ isn't uncommon. I use a .300 Win Mag and have taken shots out to 300 yards. If I had the talent, 1,000 yards would be possible on one farm I hunt. However, 300 is about what I am comfortable with.

If I was in the brush where shots are 50 yards or less, I'd think about using a .223.

This really comes down to personal opinion to a degree, and just because you saw or heard about something being done does not mean that is how it should be done. Christ, I can kill a deer with a .22lr right through the eye socket as long as it is looking right at me. I have heard of people using .22lr for neck shots because 1) it works and 2) it is economical when money is tight.

Is the .223 the optimal deer cartridge? If it was, we wouldn't be having this much debate about it. Suffice it to say, it works under the right circumstances.

Also, let's not confuse .223 with the AR-15. It can be used in bolt guns, single shots, etc. We might be mixing apples and oranges with that last paragraph of yours. Nothing wrong with using an AR-15. They are even chambered in .25 WSSM nowadays, which would be a very fine cartridge for deer sized game.

Next up, whether .22 WMR should be used for deer hunting. That makes for a nice debate too.

My post was in response to being told that the Maryland legal Remington ammo I spec'd would NOT be legal out of the OPs 14.5" AR-15 at which he was looking at a 30 yard shot. It was also inferred that a .223 is not capable or preferred to be used when hunting whitetail at any distance. I agree that you use what you are comfortable with and you take the shots you are comfortable with. I have seen more people hiking thru the woods tracking a blood trail from a much higher caliber because they either took a shot they shouldn't have or something happened at the moment of trigger pull to cause the shot to be off target (or they didn't give the animal time to just go lay down and die). Those were the specific circumstances I was referring to.

I know there are other .223 platforms as I have taken animals with my H&R .223 single shot. As far as whether .22 WMR should be used for deer, I was stating that in 5 states (ME, MS, MT, NC & VT) it is legal to do so. Also, in only 6 states (CO, CT, IN, MN, WA & WY) that allow the use of rifles (several are shotgun and ML only) are the use of .223 rounds illegal. Many of them are "Any centerfire" which would include the .17 Hornet. But - to quote Dr. Ian Malcolm: "...were so preoccupied with whether or not they could, they didn’t stop to think if they should." And the part about aiming low is that if you usually aim high on the neck to hit the spine and are off by an inch, all you do is hit fatty tissue above the spine and watch the deer run off. You may stun it for a second, but it will quickly recover and sprint away.

The premise of my ORIGINAL post was in response to the OP where I stated that not only would I have taken the shot, that with the mentioned ammo, it could be taken legally in Maryland. That's it.

HeatSeeker · May 3, 2016

No shot. That angle does not give you enough shot at vitals for a clean kill.

j_h_smith · May 3, 2016

HeatSeeker said:
No shot. That angle does not give you enough shot at vitals for a clean kill.

At 30 yards? My 14 year old nephew can hit the vitals at 30 yards. That's like a 100+ MOA shot. From in front of the right hip to the neck is a kill shot at that angle Liver, lungs, heart, neck, and spine. Other than hitting him in the butt, you've got a kill shot.

But if you have to question whether you can MAKE the shot, then you probably shouldn't TAKE the shot.

DaemonAssassin · May 3, 2016

j_h_smith said:
At 30 yards? My 14 year old nephew can hit the vitals at 30 yards. That's like a 100+ MOA shot. From in front of the right hip to the neck is a kill shot at that angle Liver, lungs, heart, neck, and spine. Other than hitting him in the butt, you've got a kill shot.

But if you have to question whether you can MAKE the shot, then you probably shouldn't TAKE the shot.

Some people don't question their ability to take a tough shot, but they choose to take it or not to take it, due to ethical reasons. Those ethical reasons are theirs and theirs alone, and not up for debate. They make the choice in the field and they have to live with it.

Most of us do not hunt because we need to put the meat on the table, we hunt because of the sport and it supplements what we already put on the table from other sources. If it was feeding your family or starving, then do what you think you have to, but we aren't in that kind of situation.

I'm not slamming what you are saying, so please do not take it as such.

Personally I learned a valuable lesson on a wicked shot like that, when a deer turned like in the picture, just as my buddy pulled the trigger. That tail shot with a .50 round ball from a ML was a real mess. I refused to help him butcher that animal, after seeing the inside of the body cavity. I could only imagine what the hydro static effect of a HP from a modern rifle would do with a tail shot or chest shot.

j_h_smith · May 3, 2016

DaemonAssassin said:
Some people don't question their ability to take a tough shot, but they choose to take it or not to take it, due to ethical reasons. Those ethical reasons are theirs and theirs alone, and not up for debate. They make the choice in the field and they have to live with it.

Most of us do not hunt because we need to put the meat on the table, we hunt because of the sport and it supplements what we already put on the table from other sources. If it was feeding your family or starving, then do what you think you have to, but we aren't in that kind of situation.

I'm not slamming what you are saying, so please do not take it as such.

Personally I learned a valuable lesson on a wicked shot like that, when a deer turned like in the picture, just as my buddy pulled the trigger. That tail shot with a .50 round ball from a ML was a real mess. I refused to help him butcher that animal, after seeing the inside of the body cavity. I could only imagine what the hydro static effect of a HP from a modern rifle would do with a tail shot or chest shot.

j_h_smith said:
But if you have to question whether you can MAKE the shot, then you probably shouldn't TAKE the shot.

This is why I made the statement above. If you don't think you can make the shot, then don't take the shot. I have harvested a doe with almost the exact same shot, except my shot was at 50 yards. Lung shot and the deer ran 75 yards.

The response was to a message that there wasn't enough vital area to take that shot. I disagree. There is plenty of vital area. From the liver, all the way up to the neck. Sure, if you can take a broadside shot, that's ideal. But I must say, most of my deer were shot in positions other than broadside.

At 30 yards, I'd take that shot with my crossbow, much less a modern firearm.

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