China Lake Launcher

From my understanding Trident Ltd was using the Airtronic USA licensing to manufacture their China Lake Grenade Launchers under the Gov license, hence why Airtronic stated 500 units destined to the U.S. Military when producing for the open Marine Corps contract. The license is still controlled by the U.S Government under a Technical Data Package as I stand corrected.

This is why the Trident/CSG launchers are rare and unusual to have even legally been introduced to the civilian market, they were manufactured during the time period of the leased TDP from the U.S. Gov to Airtronic even though litigation happened between Trident and Airtronic in the courts afterward. The two companies under partnership at the time could keep the controlled TDP manufactured launchers which could be sold privately under the controlled license because of selection of the U.S. Gov to another manufacturer causing a void in agreement of purchase contract. Anything manufactured until that point was free and clear of infringement and a direct financial loss, over one million dollars by Airtronic spent on the reproductions all together with reverse engineering, parts and labor for the reproduction launchers said to number eight originally but now it is proven that nine legal launchers are out there from this contract cancellation.

Note: Filed Sept. 1, 1967 Alfred F. Kermode holding patent 3,435,549 PUMP TYPE TUBULAR MAGAZINE REPEATING FIREARM was transferred to and held with the U.S. Gov and Filed under April 1, 1969 to the U.S. Patent office. No other China Lake reproductions are allowed unless approved by the U.S. Government for direct defense contract to the U.S. Government. V. C. Muller Attorney. U.S. Patent Office.

ar15dave said:

You really know how to confuse a guy!

The HK Sear and 10/22 Pack are on my short list and so is a select fire AK47. Just saw this and thought it was neat. Turns out the ones being sold are replicas and not the original real deal. Might pass for now and look for something on my short list.

Dave

Click to expand...

I know of a transferable Galil ARM for sale if that meets your AK list

That patent expired over thirty years ago! While there may be issues with manufacturing Destructive Devices, most of the info above makes no sense.

I see where the confusion is. To clarify, the patents on the launchers are controlled by the United States Government manufactured by Alferd Kermode well employed as a Federal Employee. This is not a civilian company or individual civilian patent that expires, it is a TDP license agreement and can only be leased for licensing under defense contract for the U.S. Gov.

US3435549A

The invention described herein may be manufactured and used by or for the Government of the United States of America for governmental purposes without the payment of any royalties thereon or therefor.

Some cool vids by Ian

https://www.youtube.com/watch?app=desktop&v=9PmCuJU6w0g

https://www.youtube.com/watch?app=desktop&v=RgpoWP-GAbQ

HELLSXGUNSMITH said:

I see where the confusion is. To clarify, the patents on the launchers are controlled by the United States Government manufactured by Alferd Kermode well employed as a Federal Employee. This is not a civilian company or individual civilian patent that expires, it is a lifetime patent and can only be leased under defense contract for the U.S. Gov.

US3435549A Lifetime, Gov purposes only.

The invention described herein may be manufactured and used by or for the Government of the United States of America for governmental purposes without the payment of any royalties thereon or therefor.

Click to expand...

There is no such thing as a lifetime patent. The text you quoted is a license statement, and this patent expired in 1986. The people in question didn't go to jail over patent violations, they went to jail because they were making parts kits out of guns they were (falsely) obtaining for law enforcement use.

I think some people are getting confused between a patent license and a technical data package license. You can license out a TDP without any active patents being involved. The government's interest was in PROCURING new and improved China Lake launchers, not enforcing an expired patent.

ETA: you guys don't have to guess at this: the opinion is available online: https://www.docketbird.com/court-do...on-on-5-31-11-tarm/vaed-1:2009-cv-01355-00178

Nothing in that lawsuit had anything to do with Trident somehow having a license to an expired patent, lol.

HELLSXGUNSMITH said:

I see where the confusion is. To clarify, the patents on the launchers are controlled by the United States Government manufactured by Alferd Kermode well employed as a Federal Employee. This is not a civilian company or individual civilian patent that expires, it is a lifetime patent and can only be leased under defense contract for the U.S. Gov.

US3435549A Lifetime, Gov purposes only.

The invention described herein may be manufactured and used by or for the Government of the United States of America for governmental purposes without the payment of any royalties thereon or therefor.
....

Click to expand...

https://patents.google.com/patent/US3435549A/en

It says on this patent link that the patent is expired.

Regardless of the patent situation, we all know that plenty of people simply copy a design, cut of the original name and add their own... it gets around much of the patent world. I doubt the US Government is coming after you for patent rights on something like this.

Sounds like this guy had other issues but making a few of these 40mm China Lakes does not sound like a deal killer if they were done well.

Your reading what i stated wrong erwos, I never once said in my post that Vahan went to jail over patent infringements, he went to jail for fed charges on 71 mg's. I said he did violate patent infringement by not having leasing rights for the launchers from the gov by using ASI markings on his launchers which were copied from a launcher built with licensing. As far as licensing that was with Airtronic agreeing to a U.S. contract for 500 units. Yes the patent shows the word expired as of 1986 but also shows lifetime next to it and green as in active, which I confused for licensing of the TDP. It is still controlled by the Gov and not open to public unless you lease the rights to manufacture it for the gov and they agree with the contract. Which most likely wont happen again which sucks. Had Alfred Kermode not been an employee of the Gov when these were manufactured they would be open to the public without a TDP.

https://www.upcounsel.com/government-owned-patents

I didn't know these things existed until I watched Ian's YouTube video. I can't afford either the launcher or the ammo. I'm not equipped to argue patent law minutiae. I'm done.

HELLSXGUNSMITH said:

Yes the patent shows the word expired as of 86 but also shows lifetime next to it and green as in active. It is still controlled by the Gov and not open to public unless you lease the rights to manufacture it for the gov and they agree with the contract. Which most likely wont happen again which sucks. Had Alfred Kermode not been an employee of the Gov when these were manufactured they would be open to the public.

https://www.upcounsel.com/government-owned-patents

Click to expand...

Nothing in that URL says that government patents don't expire. It says that the government gets a royalty-free, non-exclusive, and irrevocable license to use that patent if they fund it. Why are you continuing to insist on this nonsense of lifetime patents? THEY DO NOT EXIST. Pointing to a green bullet point next to the word "expired" as proof that a patent is still valid is insane. Here's an Aimpoint patent that expired last year - you gonna tell me that's still valid due to a green bullet point? https://patents.google.com/patent/US6373628B1/en

You have no idea what you are talking about. Find me one source that explicitly says that patents owned by the government never expire. You will not find it, because it's flat out untrue. Instead of sticking to your point, I'd suggest re-evaluating your position and actually using primary sources (ie, not unsourced allegations in Wikipedia).

Yes, it shows the patent expired in 1986. Im not saying patents dont expire. I am saying the design is still U.S. Gov property and requires licensing from them to produce in the future. That is even after a patent expires. It's not a open public design.

HELLSXGUNSMITH said:

Yes, it shows the patent expired in 1986. Im not saying patents dont expire. I am saying the design is still U.S. Gov property and requires licensing from them to produce in the future. That is even after a patent expires. It's not a open public design.

Click to expand...

I will try and nicely put it... what you say here conflicts with itself. Its patent is expired but it still has patent rights. It does not make sense. If the patent is expired the Government has no right to enforce patent rights on it. I agree with erwos that this lifetime patent thing is something I have never heard of. It works against the whole idea of a patent. If the Government would have patented something it would be able to collect money on that forever. I can think of no item like this in the world. I looked it up and could find nothing to support what you are claiming here. Please provide a link to something similar...

This does require a license to produce from them in the form of an FFL/SOT/DD. Its not easy to get into making DDs for the civilian world.

HELLSXGUNSMITH said:

Yes, it shows the patent expired in 1986. Im not saying patents dont expire.

Click to expand...

Actually, you literally said this, but I'm glad we're on the same page now. Patents are irrelevant to this discussion, please stop bringing them up.

I am saying the design is still U.S. Gov property and requires licensing from them to produce in the future. That is even after a patent expires. It's not a open public design.

Click to expand...

What you're referring to is something called a technical data package. And, you're right, it's not a public domain item, it's protected by copyright and/or trade secret law. But guess what? If you take a freely-acquired, non-NDA-encumbered manufactured object and then reverse engineer it by taking measurements and otherwise making your own (very similar) design from it, you are not violating copyright or trade secret law. This is precisely what Trident did. Without patent protection, there was nothing whatsoever stopping them from making reproductions.

DUH DUH DUN TA DUN. DUH DUH DUN TA DUN:

But Alferd Kermode was an employee for the U.S. Gov then how does Ex. Ord. No. 10096. Uniform Government Patent Policy for Inventions by Government Employees not require licensing forever or lifetime? It would need to be an exact copy of the launcher I understand. Unless they are all frankenstein launchers that never met the original patents of Kermode's designs.

HELLSXGUNSMITH said:

But Alferd Kermode was an employee for the U.S. Gov then how does Ex. Ord. No. 10096. Uniform Government Patent Policy for Inventions by Government Employees not require licensing forever or lifetime? It would need to be an exact copy of the launcher I understand. Unless they are all frankenstein launchers that never met the original patents of Kermode's designs.

Click to expand...

The government's non-exclusive, royalty-free, irrevocable license is for the lifetime OF THE PATENT. The patent still expires, at which point licenses are no longer required for its use for anyone. That executive order does not create a class of forever patents. Strongly suggest you educate yourself on patent law a little further before making any further claims in this area.

The patent expired in 1986. No licenses are required by anyone to use the invention described in the patent after the patent expires. The fact that the government had a license does not change either of those facts. I don't know how much simpler I can make this for you.

erwos said:

The government's non-exclusive, royalty-free, irrevocable license is for the lifetime OF THE PATENT. The patent still expires, at which point licenses are no longer required for its use for anyone. That executive order does not create a class of forever patents. Strongly suggest you educate yourself on patent law a little further before making any further claims in this area.

The patent expired in 1986. No licenses are required by anyone to use the invention described in the patent after the patent expires. The fact that the government had a license does not change either of those facts. I don't know how much simpler I can make this for you.

Click to expand...

This.

That said, per IMBLITZVT, you still need an FFL/SOT to make said items. Maybe someone could make some of these as 37mm flare launchers. Or maybe rescue line launchers. When you've got a whole passel of boats that need rescuing right NOW.