NYC CCW case is at SCOTUS!

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  • kcbrown

    Super Genius
    Jun 16, 2012
    1,393
    You talk about plain meaning, but plain meaning is not really originalism. It is textualism. Originalism is about original understanding, not about plain meaning. There are other modes of constitutional interpretation https://www.everycrsreport.com/reports/R45129.html

    I said originally understood plain meaning, not "plain meaning" without that additional context.


    The Constitution is written in general terms and is not designed to address all possible issues.

    That doesn't matter. The Constitution was written in the only language the founders knew and understood: theirs. Its authors used meanings they understood, and wrote the Constitution with the intention that their contemporaries and everyone who followed would arrive at the same understanding as theirs. This is no different from any other communication. We communicate for the purpose of conveying information and ideas as per our understanding. An honest recipient will do his best to reach that same understanding. Only a dishonest recipient will insist upon his own meaning over and above that of the originator.

    To insist that it means anything else is to insist that "well, times are different now, so what you said before must mean something else now" is somehow valid. No, we simply don't do things that way, and for good reason: because to do so ultimately renders everything that is ever said bereft of meaning. If meaning can be arbitrarily assigned, then nothing has any real meaning in the first place, and the ultimate purpose of communication, which is the conveyance of ideas, will be torn asunder.


    We also cannot clarify with anyone what it means.

    That does not relieve us of the obligation to determine, to the best of our abilities, what the original intended meaning was. The original intended meaning is the only valid meaning. You don’t just throw up your hands and say “well, I guess what you meant is whatever I think it should mean” just because you can’t ask the source. Instead, you’re obligated to do the appropriate research in order to get as close as possible to the originally intended meaning. The process of doing this properly is now a field of study unto itself. That is how seriously we take this. It clearly won’t do at all for the courts to take such a thing any less seriously.

    I am not claiming that we must be perfect in this. There are obvious limitations to what we can determine. But we are remiss in our duty if we do not reach those limits in our attempt to understand what was originally meant.


    The courts need to resolve cases and the Constitution grants the courts judicial power. Additionally the issues facing us today are not the same as what the founders faced.

    That is true, but also irrelevant. The Constitution does not grant the courts the power to decide cases in whatever way they wish, precisely because the Constitution is the supreme law of the land, which means the Courts are tasked with deciding cases in such a way that they do not conflict with the originally intended meaning of the Constitution. To insist otherwise is to insist that the judiciary can legitimately "decide" that the judiciary actually holds all government power, that all other branches answer to it, and henceforth the judiciary will not only decide cases, but will actively engage in creation of new law, thus setting up the judiciary as the sole ”legitimate” rulers of the country. To insist that the courts are not constrained in their decisions by the original intended meaning of the Constitution is to insist that the judiciary legitimately has unlimited power to do anything it pleases merely by proclaiming it in a decision.

    Is that really what you're arguing for? Because it's a natural consequence of insisting that the courts can decide cases however they wish without constraint.


    For example the 2A states that the right shall not be infringed, but it does not define what that right is. Plain meaning would need to address the prefatory clause about the militia. The militia today is very different from what was envisioned. The militia has police functions that are now separate from the military. There was a historical prohibition on concealed carry, but concealed carry seems to be the preferred method of carry today. You seem to focus on one particular aspect that does not appear to be very relevant in todays society. How do you assign an original public meaning to something that is very different today?

    You can't even properly determine whether or not the original intended meaning is applicable without understanding what that original intended meaning was in the first place.


    One of the things that scrutiny does is help extrapolate the general principles of the Constitution to specific examples.

    Sorry, I don't buy it. Scrutiny always places "government interest" over and above the Constitutionally-protected right being considered, and only provides specific exceptions for when the right will manage to prevail. That turns the very notion of rights on its head, because the entire point of a right is that it is something that you can exercise despite any "interest" the government might have, so long as that exercise does not conflict with some other right. To insist otherwise is to insist that rights are actually privileges to be metered out by the government as it sees fit, so long as the government does so the “right way”.

    Constitutional rights don't mean a thing if the government can infringe them simply by doing so in "the right way", but that's exactly what "scrutiny" insists is the case.
     
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    kcbrown

    Super Genius
    Jun 16, 2012
    1,393
    I think an issue though is a weapon of mass destruction doesn’t simply empower the citizenry over its government. It also gives tyranny to any small group of citizens or even an individual over society if they so sought to exercise that.

    No doubt.

    WMDs seem to be in a class of their own for a number of reasons.

    Even so, the question of whether or not they may be necessary to prevail over a tyrannical government is an important one, and one which I would argue must ultimately be the deciding factor.
     

    kcbrown

    Super Genius
    Jun 16, 2012
    1,393
    Can you make up your mind. Either the 2A codifies a pre-existing right, and history matters, or it does not.

    There is some reason to believe that the founding generation understood concealed carry to be within the scope of the right: https://fedsoc.org/commentary/publications/concealed-carry-and-the-right-to-bear-arms

    By the way, remember our discussion about Bliss? Remember how you pointed out that Kentucky changed its constitution in response to it?

    Well, as it happens, that change didn't occur until 1850, which means that it was not made by founding generation people. So as it happens, you can't use the fact that Kentucky changed its constitution as any sort of evidence that the founding generation understood concealed carry to be outside of the scope of the right to bear arms.
     
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    camo556

    Ultimate Member
    Aug 29, 2021
    2,634
    Somewhat related... NYC is embarking on the DIY method of crime control.

    https://www.foxnews.com/us/new-york-city-detectives-low-staffing-lack-of-support

    In July 2020, Mayor Bill de Blasio and the New York City council voted to cut the city’s police department’s budget by roughly $1 billion amid intense public pressure to defund the police.

    The budget cuts resulted in the 600-officer, plainclothes anti-crime unit being disbanded, the delay of a cadet class of roughly 900 officers and decreased overtime.

    Also NYC police and fire is about to see a ****ton of retirements due to vaccine mandates.

    I have heard anecdotes from friends that if you are not gangster carrying in the waistband (i.e. using a holster), they wont really stop you.

    Is constitutional carry coming to NYC or is it de facto already here?
     

    pcfixer

    Ultimate Member
    May 24, 2009
    5,953
    Marylandstan
    There is some reason to believe that the founding generation understood concealed carry to be within the scope of the right: https://fedsoc.org/commentary/publications/concealed-carry-and-the-right-to-bear-arms Yes, read VI Conclusion.

    By the way, remember our discussion about Bliss? Remember how you pointed out that Kentucky changed its constitution in response to it?

    Well, as it happens, that change didn't occur until 1850, which means that it was not made by founding generation people. So as it happens, you can't use the fact that Kentucky changed its constitution as any sort of evidence that the founding generation understood concealed carry to be outside of the scope of the right to bear arms.

    Thank You for finding this. Exactly what I've been saying. The mode, manner or how one 'bears' arms, in all reality can't be separated.
    To “Bear” Means to “Carry” In District of Columbia v. Heller, the U.S. Supreme Court held that the right to keep and bear arms extends to individuals and invalidated the District’s handgun ban.
    Keep and Bear Arms is protected since the founding. 2A is a codified pre existing right. The government is to protect our rights, laws is written in law thru the Declaration of Independence and Constitution.
     
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    wjackcooper

    Active Member
    Feb 9, 2011
    689
    kcbrown, thanks for the link - good read!

    Given that in N.Y. open carry is prohibited:

    (1) In N.Y. concealed, as a method of carry, is reinforced as legal by reason of a presumably constitutionally valid state law.* (2) In N.Y. licensed concealed-carry outside of the home was legal yesterday, is today and will be tomorrow. (3) In N.Y. applications for “self-defense” concealed-carry licenses filed yesterday, today, and tomorrow, are apt be denied. (4) License denial in is challenged by Clement as a N.Y. violation of the Second Amendment protected right to carry in a pocket (i.e., bear concealed outside) for self-defense.**

    Critical in this case is the “bear” part of the Second Amendment which precludes N.Y.’s general denial of the right to carry concealed firearms for self-defense outside of the home.*** Clement points out the obvious: “This Court’s opinion in Caetano v. Massachusetts likewise makes sense only on the understanding that the Second Amendment is not a homebound right.” ****

    Trolling efforts here consistently confirm that Clement has postured this case perfectly for a win. If he wins, the result probably will be N.Y. going “shall-issue” concealed-carry “for self-defense;” with “longstanding prohibitions” and “sensitive places” restrictions remaining controlling law.

    Regards
    Jack

    *https://www.law.cornell.edu/constitu...stitutionality “It is but a decent respect to the wisdom, integrity, and patriotism of the legislative body, by which any law is passed,” wrote Justice Bushrod Washington, “to presume in favor of its validity, until its violation of the Constitution is proved beyond a reasonable doubt. See para. 1.

    **https://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/07pdf/07-290.pdf Heller (2008) pages 10 & 11: “[T]he Constitution’s Second Amendment . . . indicate: . . . bear, or carry . . . upon the person or in the clothing or in a pocket, for the purpose . . . of being armed and ready for offensive or defensive action . . .’”

    ***https://supreme.justia.com/cases/fed...pinion-1963369 McDonald (2010) page 1, paragraph 1: “Two years ago, in District of Columbia v. Heller, 554 U. S. 742, this Court held that the Second Amendment protects the right to keep and bear arms for the purpose of self-defense . . . .”

    ****https://www.supremecourt.gov/DocketP...ng Brief.pdf July 13th 2021, Brief of petitioners p. 38, “This Court’s opinion in Caetano v. Massachusetts likewise makes sense only on the understanding that the Second Amendment is not a homebound right.”
     

    rbird7282

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Dec 6, 2012
    18,688
    Columbia
    I said originally understood plain meaning, not "plain meaning" without that additional context.




    That doesn't matter. The Constitution was written in the only language the founders knew and understood: theirs. Its authors used meanings they understood, and wrote the Constitution with the intention that their contemporaries and everyone who followed would arrive at the same understanding as theirs. This is no different from any other communication. We communicate for the purpose of conveying information and ideas as per our understanding. An honest recipient will do his best to reach that same understanding. Only a dishonest recipient will insist upon his own meaning over and above that of the originator.

    To insist that it means anything else is to insist that "well, times are different now, so what you said before must mean something else now" is somehow valid. No, we simply don't do things that way, and for good reason: because to do so ultimately renders everything that is ever said bereft of meaning. If meaning can be arbitrarily assigned, then nothing has any real meaning in the first place, and the ultimate purpose of communication, which is the conveyance of ideas, will be torn asunder.




    That does not relieve us of the obligation to determine, to the best of our abilities, what the original intended meaning was. The original intended meaning is the only valid meaning. You don’t just throw up your hands and say “well, I guess what you meant is whatever I think it should mean” just because you can’t ask the source. Instead, you’re obligated to do the appropriate research in order to get as close as possible to the originally intended meaning. The process of doing this properly is now a field of study unto itself. That is how seriously we take this. It clearly won’t do at all for the courts to take such a thing any less seriously.

    I am not claiming that we must be perfect in this. There are obvious limitations to what we can determine. But we are remiss in our duty if we do not reach those limits in our attempt to understand what was originally meant.




    That is true, but also irrelevant. The Constitution does not grant the courts the power to decide cases in whatever way they wish, precisely because the Constitution is the supreme law of the land, which means the Courts are tasked with deciding cases in such a way that they do not conflict with the originally intended meaning of the Constitution. To insist otherwise is to insist that the judiciary can legitimately "decide" that the judiciary actually holds all government power, that all other branches answer to it, and henceforth the judiciary will not only decide cases, but will actively engage in creation of new law, thus setting up the judiciary as the sole legitimate rulers of the country. To insist that the courts are not constrained in their decisions by the original intended meaning of the Constitution is to insist that the judiciary legitimately has unlimited power to do anything it pleases merely by proclaiming it in a decision.

    Is that really what you're arguing for? Because it's a natural consequence of insisting that the courts can decide cases however they wish without constraint.




    You can't even properly determine whether or not the original intended meaning is applicable without understanding what that original intended meaning was in the first place.




    Sorry, I don't buy it. Scrutiny always places "government interest" over and above the Constitutionally-protected right being considered, and only provides specific exceptions for when the right will manage to prevail. That turns the very notion of rights on its head, because the entire point of a right is that it is something that you can exercise despite any "interest" the government might have, so long as that exercise does not conflict with some other right. To insist otherwise is to insist that rights are actually privileges to be metered out by the government as it sees fit, so long as the government does so the “right way”.

    Constitutional rights don't mean a thing if the government can infringe them simply by doing so in "the right way", but that's exactly what "scrutiny" insists is the case.

    THIS. Very well stated.
     

    camo556

    Ultimate Member
    Aug 29, 2021
    2,634
    Trolling efforts here consistently confirm that Clement has postured this case perfectly for a win. If he wins, the result probably will be N.Y. going “shall-issue” concealed-carry “for self-defense;” with “longstanding prohibitions” and “sensitive places” restrictions remaining controlling law.

    Regards
    Jack

    :thumbsup:
     

    jcutonilli

    Ultimate Member
    Mar 28, 2013
    2,474
    If it's not part of the right, and they ban open carry, but also say the right isn't homebound, isn't that a contradiction on their part?

    Yes that would seem to be a contradiction. They seem to be using the allowance of concealed carry to try and side step the issue. The plaintiffs believe this is why concealed carry is now part of the right.

    I think there are holes in both sides arguments, we will see how the Justices weigh these conflicting issues to craft a cohesive opinion.
     

    lazarus

    Ultimate Member
    Jun 23, 2015
    13,726
    No doubt.

    WMDs seem to be in a class of their own for a number of reasons.

    Even so, the question of whether or not they may be necessary to prevail over a tyrannical government is an important one, and one which I would argue must ultimately be the deciding factor.

    I don't think it is. Unless applied in the context of a small group of people prevailing over a government, tyrannical or otherwise.

    Which I don't think is what almost anyone wants (unless they are of course part of that small group). If it is a small group usurping the government, whether it is a rightful government or not, is generally not a good thing. I can't think of any historical examples where the results were good in the medium or long term and few even in the short term.

    I do think it should take a last a vast minority, if not the majority of the populace to decide to replace a tyrannical government. What might seem tyrannical for 5% of the populace may not be for the other 95%. When it comes down to it, if this was the case and the government were in possession of WMD, likely the citizenry would end up seizing some of them.

    But I doubt it really matters in the end. No sane government nor the vast majority of its citizenry would likely be comfortable enough with individuals or small groups being in possession of WMD. So it is at best academic.
     

    kcbrown

    Super Genius
    Jun 16, 2012
    1,393
    I don't think it is. Unless applied in the context of a small group of people prevailing over a government, tyrannical or otherwise.

    Really? Well, suppose that possession of WMDs is necessary for the citizenry to prevail over the government.

    If a ban against them is enacted, it would then follow that the citizenry would no longer be able to prevail against a tyrannical government, which means that if the government does become tyrannical (as most governments do sooner or later), then the citizenry would be unable to prevail against it.

    Thus, by prohibiting possession of WMDs in that case, you've effectively stripped the citizenry of their right to liberty.


    So: does the citizenry have the right to liberty or not?

    Note that I recognize that rights can be limited by other rights when they collide, and that might be the case here. But note, too, that the liberty the founders fought for is something they chose over life itself, so where those two rights collide, the right to liberty wins. One could make a solid argument that the right to liberty cannot win over the right to life when the entire civilization will die in the pursuit of liberty, and the use of WMDs presents a real danger of that. But it's important to think about, because the founders claimed to value liberty over their own lives ("give me liberty or give me death", no?). If liberty no longer holds the value it did during the founding then, well, I honestly don't know what to say to that, except perhaps that such a sentiment speaks for itself (if only to illustrate that we today are not made of the stuff that was necessary to win the American Revolution).


    Which I don't think is what almost anyone wants (unless they are of course part of that small group). If it is a small group usurping the government, whether it is a rightful government or not, is generally not a good thing. I can't think of any historical examples where the results were good in the medium or long term and few even in the short term.

    The question is whether or not the "small group" has the backing of enough of the citizenry that you can no longer regard them as outliers. I think you're presuming that WMDs give small groups the power to usurp the government. I'm not convinced that's the case. As a general rule, the smaller the group is, the easier it is to take out. Now, doing so might carry a very high price, and that's really the issue at hand here.


    I do think it should take a last a vast minority, if not the majority of the populace to decide to replace a tyrannical government. What might seem tyrannical for 5% of the populace may not be for the other 95%. When it comes down to it, if this was the case and the government were in possession of WMD, likely the citizenry would end up seizing some of them.

    Firstly, history makes it clear that people are willing to tolerate all manner of imposition on their liberty. The vast majority of people throughout history lived under an authoritarian government of some kind or another, and a very large percentage of the population throughout history have been slaves of one form or another (there are various names for them, e.g. "peasant", and various degrees of slavery as well). So that 95% of the population believe that they are not living under tyrannical conditions that warrant revolutionary action is no indicator whatsoever that they aren't living under tyrannical conditions, and most certainly isn't any indicator that they have anything like the liberty that the founders fought a revolutionary war to obtain.

    Secondly, what proportion of the population in the colonies supported the revolutionaries? Whatever that proportion is, if we believe the American Revolution to be a valid one, then that proportion is the maximum one to justify revolutionary action against a tyrannical government. Which is to say, the proper cutoff might be lower than that, but is most certainly no higher than that (since if the cutoff were higher than that, then the American Revolution would not be justifiable).


    But I doubt it really matters in the end. No sane government nor the vast majority of its citizenry would likely be comfortable enough with individuals or small groups being in possession of WMD. So it is at best academic.

    That's likely true, admittedly. The reason I think it's useful to discuss the question is that it may result in useful ways to think about the overall question of ownership of arms.
     
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    jcutonilli

    Ultimate Member
    Mar 28, 2013
    2,474
    Why should "legitimate reasons" be acceptable in the face of a fundamental right, as opposed to, say, "overwhelmingly necessary reasons"?

    All sorts of things have "legitimate reasons". Even bans on political speech have "legitimate reasons". But those bans fall in the face of the right to speech.

    "Legitimate reasons" is little different from "rational basis", no?
    What is "legitimate" depends on the circumstances. For the 2A, rational basis is not legitimate (see Heller). For political speech, strict scrutiny is generally considered the legitimate level. Other speech may use different levels of scrutiny to determine what is legitimate.
    Those are bans on use by governments. And nobody has any real power to enforce them. They are gentlemen's agreements, nothing more.

    They represent societal bans, which is why they are no longer common
    And if possession of bioweapons by the citizenry proves to be necessary to enable the citizenry to remain free of tyranny? Then what?
    The premise of the question is wrong. There really is no legitimate use for bioweapons. They tend to be too indiscriminate to be useful weapons.
    I tend to agree, obviously. :)




    I'm not sure I follow. Certainly, the police tend to interact with the citizenry, but the police have special powers that the citizenry does not, just as the military has special powers that the citizenry does not. Is that not enough to argue that the police have "special needs" which override any claim that their use should be considered part of the "common use" equation?

    I still don't see how you can cleanly differentiate between the police and the military on this. About the only thing you can say that's truly different between them is that the police turn their arms on the citizenry, whilst the military thus far has not. This is clearly not enough to justify a "common use" standard that excludes the military when one of the purposes of the right is for the citizenry to be able to prevail against that same military in the event the government turns it against the citizenry.
    The police don't have as much special powers as you might think. Everyone is capable of making a citizens arrest. The role the police play is to protect society, which is the same role its citizens play.

    It is not about turning arms on the citizenry, it is how arms are used in society. The police typically use their arms within society on a regular basis. The military typically does not use their arms within society.
    That's relevant only as far as it goes. But the purpose of the 2nd Amendment is more than just defense of the individual or even of the state. Its purpose is also the defense of liberty, especially in the face of an oppressive government.




    That's true, but misses the point. The point is that the Court said that all bearable weapons are facially protected. If you combine that with the "not typically possessed" rule, you get one set of protected weapons.

    If you use "common use" as the metric, you get a different set of protected weapons, and notably a much smaller one, depending on what exactly you mean by "common". And it's a static one at that, because the government can, through bans, force arms to never become common, unless "common" actually means "typically possessed by law-abiding citizens for lawful purposes".

    And then you have the problem of what "common" means in the first place. If it means "possessed by law abiding citizens for lawful purposes more often than not", then that's just the same as saying that an arm is protected unless it's "not typically possessed by law abiding citizens for lawful purposes". If that's how you're figuring that "common" is defined then the M-16 obviously qualifies as being protected.
    The Court did not really mean "all" as they later clarified that not all arms are really protected. Only commonly used arms possessed by law abiding citizens for lawful purposes. It is not static. It is dynamic in that it that reflects the norms of society.

    Common relates to society and how an arm is used within society. It certainly is not "obvious" that an M-16 or any machine gun is commonly used within society.

    The difference is that in war, "lawful" is defined solely by the victors. For the citizens, it's the government that, on its face, defines "lawful". And therein lies the problem and the solution. The government's legitimate powers are limited, explicitly defined and constrained by the Constitution itself. The Constitution is the supreme law. This means that protection of the right to arms is the law, above all others. When the government enacts a ban against arms, it breaks that law unless those arms are outside of the scope of the right. "Lawful", then, is ultimately defined by the right itself, and its scope.

    That scope is that which was originally understood by the founding generation. It is not static, because it includes the originally understood principles behind it, and those principles apply to the current prevailing circumstances, which then gets you the current operative scope. To the degree that the principles the founders understood includes societal standards, the current scope will adhere to those standards. But only to that degree.
    "Lawful" and common tend to be synonymous and reflect societal standards
    Well, "more often than not" is just another way of saying that you have a 50% possession cutoff, above which the arm would be considered "typically possessed" (or "commonly possessed"). So it's a way of implicitly stating a number without explicitly stating it. :D

    Except that "more often than not" may not be the cut off. The answer really depend on how it is really used in society and whether that use could be considered common. Football is commonly played in the US, but it is not played "more often than not".
     

    jcutonilli

    Ultimate Member
    Mar 28, 2013
    2,474
    I said originally understood plain meaning, not "plain meaning" without that additional context.




    That doesn't matter. The Constitution was written in the only language the founders knew and understood: theirs. Its authors used meanings they understood, and wrote the Constitution with the intention that their contemporaries and everyone who followed would arrive at the same understanding as theirs. This is no different from any other communication. We communicate for the purpose of conveying information and ideas as per our understanding. An honest recipient will do his best to reach that same understanding. Only a dishonest recipient will insist upon his own meaning over and above that of the originator.

    To insist that it means anything else is to insist that "well, times are different now, so what you said before must mean something else now" is somehow valid. No, we simply don't do things that way, and for good reason: because to do so ultimately renders everything that is ever said bereft of meaning. If meaning can be arbitrarily assigned, then nothing has any real meaning in the first place, and the ultimate purpose of communication, which is the conveyance of ideas, will be torn asunder.




    That does not relieve us of the obligation to determine, to the best of our abilities, what the original intended meaning was. The original intended meaning is the only valid meaning. You don’t just throw up your hands and say “well, I guess what you meant is whatever I think it should mean” just because you can’t ask the source. Instead, you’re obligated to do the appropriate research in order to get as close as possible to the originally intended meaning. The process of doing this properly is now a field of study unto itself. That is how seriously we take this. It clearly won’t do at all for the courts to take such a thing any less seriously.

    I am not claiming that we must be perfect in this. There are obvious limitations to what we can determine. But we are remiss in our duty if we do not reach those limits in our attempt to understand what was originally meant.




    That is true, but also irrelevant. The Constitution does not grant the courts the power to decide cases in whatever way they wish, precisely because the Constitution is the supreme law of the land, which means the Courts are tasked with deciding cases in such a way that they do not conflict with the originally intended meaning of the Constitution. To insist otherwise is to insist that the judiciary can legitimately "decide" that the judiciary actually holds all government power, that all other branches answer to it, and henceforth the judiciary will not only decide cases, but will actively engage in creation of new law, thus setting up the judiciary as the sole ”legitimate” rulers of the country. To insist that the courts are not constrained in their decisions by the original intended meaning of the Constitution is to insist that the judiciary legitimately has unlimited power to do anything it pleases merely by proclaiming it in a decision.

    Is that really what you're arguing for? Because it's a natural consequence of insisting that the courts can decide cases however they wish without constraint.




    You can't even properly determine whether or not the original intended meaning is applicable without understanding what that original intended meaning was in the first place.




    Sorry, I don't buy it. Scrutiny always places "government interest" over and above the Constitutionally-protected right being considered, and only provides specific exceptions for when the right will manage to prevail. That turns the very notion of rights on its head, because the entire point of a right is that it is something that you can exercise despite any "interest" the government might have, so long as that exercise does not conflict with some other right. To insist otherwise is to insist that rights are actually privileges to be metered out by the government as it sees fit, so long as the government does so the “right way”.

    Constitutional rights don't mean a thing if the government can infringe them simply by doing so in "the right way", but that's exactly what "scrutiny" insists is the case.

    "Originally understood plain meaning" is still a subset of "plain meaning", which means it is still textualism rather than originalism.

    You also need to understand that we live in a common law system and the Constitution was created with that type of system in mind. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_law Judges play a role in shaping the law in this type of system.
     

    pcfixer

    Ultimate Member
    May 24, 2009
    5,953
    Marylandstan

    wjackcooper

    Active Member
    Feb 9, 2011
    689
    Perspective:

    SC observers (excepting those completely oblivious, or trolls) will agree that from 2010 (McDonald) until 2020 (Barrett) 2A cert petitions (no matter how meritorious) were totally at the mercy of Kennedy and/or Roberts. The conservatives had the four votes necessary to grant cert; but with Kennedy/Roberts in play could not be sure of the five votes needed for a win on the merits; consequently cert was routinely denied. Barrett’s appointment changed the game.

    Given 5 Conservative Justices, their 2, or 3 elite law clerks each ( i.e., 10, or more of the top young, high - powered lawyers in the country) the previous Kennedy/Roberts blocked pertinent 2A cert petitions, responses and amicus briefs over the past decade (many prepared by the best 2A lawyers in the country) all of which are reviewable by the present clerks via the SC’s records, numerous related lower court opinions, this case, its petition, the response and 10 or 12 cogent amicus briefs . . . the Court is already over exposed to all of the relevant, legally sound 2A arguments, plus many not relevant (i.e., beside the point) and/or legally unsound. The 5 Conservative Justices and their selected, supporting clerks have more than enough relevant material and intellectual horsepower to completely research the law, frame issues, raise questions, comprehend arguments and compose Constitution driven, controlling law.

    This case was probably decided based on the original petition, the response and Court Clerk research. At least 5 Justices appear to have agreed on the 2A question to present and the answer before granting cert. Lawyers, who play at this level (e.g., Clement) understand: (1) Constitutional Law. (2) SC Judicial politics and procedures. (3) The Court’s political line up. (4) The court’s questions. (5) The ramifications of the questions. (6) How to frame the response. (7) The case’s resulting posture. (8) Know how to argue accordingly and (8) can count to five. . . . a few of the many reasons they make the big bucks.

    As press1280 has pointed out Wrenn (DC Circuit win, 2017) is nearly a cut and paste opinion option for this case.*

    Although the record shows no law based reason for the 2A’s supporters to be pessimistic, there remains a (probably remote) possibility that one, or more of the 5 Conservative Justices might wimp out. If so, the reason will be purely political, no matter what the opinion and/or order may reflect. The odds (in the continued absence of any credible reason in fact, or law to the contrary) remain favorable.

    Regards
    Jack

    *The D.C. Circuit held that, at the core of the Second Amendment lies the right of responsible citizens to carry firearms for personal self-defense beyond the home, subject to longstanding restrictions. These traditional limits include, for instance, licensing requirements, but not bans on carrying in urban areas like D.C. or bans on carrying absent a special need for self-defense.”
    https://law.justia.com/cases/federal/appellate-courts/cadc/16-7025/16-7025-2017-07-25.html Para 1

    “[W]e conclude: the individual right to carry common firearms beyond the home for self-defense—even in densely populated areas, even for those lacking special self-defense needs—falls within the core of the Second Amendment’s protections.” Pages 18 and 19.
    https://www.cadc.uscourts.gov/internet/opinions.nsf/005426559985AEE685258168004F376E/$file/16-7025-1685640.pdf
     
    Last edited:

    Allen65

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Jun 29, 2013
    7,150
    Anne Arundel County
    "Lawful" and common tend to be synonymous and reflect societal standards

    Except that "more often than not" may not be the cut off. The answer really depend on how it is really used in society and whether that use could be considered common. Football is commonly played in the US, but it is not played "more often than not".

    "Tend to be", but there are significant exceptions to that rule. Pot use? Easily 60% or more of the population has at least tried it, in violation of the law. Speeding? Almost 100% of drivers have knowingly and intentionally violate those laws regularly. Use of turn signals? Lots of empirical evidence about compliance on that from my daily commute. And weren't there several fairly common sex acts that until recently would have made the violator a prohibited person in Maryland?

    Common and lawful aren't interchangeable standards except for some egregiously antisocial acts like robbery or murder.
     

    Texasgrillchef

    Active Member
    Oct 29, 2021
    740
    Dallas, texas
    With the number of briefs filed on both sides, I doubt oral arguments will have much to add to or be new in respect to what’s allready been said in the numerous briefs filed. For either side.

    Unless someone makes a major blunder during oral arguments, I believe the Justices have for the most part allready decided the outcome of this case.

    If they were going to uphold the lower courts ruling, I doubt they would have granted cert to this case. Especially since theoretically we have a 6-3 split.

    Some changes our forthcoming for sure. Exactly to what degree those changes will be are for the most part right now speculative.

    IMHO… SCOTUS will say it’s a constitutional right to be able to carry outside the home for the purpose of self-defense. Will it only be for concealed carry, or open carry, or for both, only they know at this point. It is interesting to note that several states supreme courts have allready found that one has a constitutional right to open carry, even without a permit. But did not rule the same for conceal carry.

    Keep in Mind that even Hawaii in the Young v Hawaii case have seceded that one has a right to open carry outside the home although with limitations. NY has seceded the same for conceal carry, barring the additional requirements.

    However, if you look at various past opinions issued by SCOTUS they are always watered down so to speak. Even in the Heller and McDonald cases various lines and paragraphs were added just to get the extra needed votes to get a win.

    So will the opinion for this case have various lines and paragraphs giving limitations and exclusions? Absolutely. Hopefully they won’t be to bad.

    I also get the feeling that various issues that were started with the Heller case , might get addressed as well, although not directly. Such as the use of scrutiny.

    Also keep in mind several related cases that are still pending cert. such as the Young v Hawaii case. It is interesting that it has been re-listed more then once and has yet to be denied. Maybe it’s being held pending the outcome of this case, simply to address the open carry aspect as well. Who knows.

    But in 3 days, this case will be heard and for the most part put to bed until we get the opinion.

    I am wondering what effect this case will have on Maryland though.
     

    pcfixer

    Ultimate Member
    May 24, 2009
    5,953
    Marylandstan
    https://www.buckeyefirearms.org/take-action-urge-ohio-legislators-pass-constitutional-carry

    by Dean Rieck
    7:00AM MONDAY, OCTOBER 11, 2021
    Ohio and 33 other states already allow open carry without a license. Plus 21 states allow concealed carry without a license. So permitless or “license optional” carry is a proven concept.

    That's why it's time for Constitutional Carry in Ohio.

    Buckeye Firearms Association has been meeting and working with members of the Ohio Senate and House on an almost daily basis to push Constitutional Carry and line up support. This includes support for Senator Terry Johnson's bill, SB 215.
     

    Bob A

    όυ φροντισ
    MDS Supporter
    Patriot Picket
    Nov 11, 2009
    30,908
    I am wondering what effect this case will have on Maryland though.

    Maryland will hate it, and probably will have to be sued into compliance. Then local municipalities will weight in with restrictions. The courts will allow them to get away with this until another series of suits forces them to comply. Then the GA will come up with laws that will attempt to interfere with compliance, and back to court we'll go.

    Or so I imagine.
     

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