Old April 7th, 2021, 10:29 PM #81
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Cheapest I've seen is polymer 80% lower with PSA rifle kit. Can't get much cheaper than that. But guess what? They work. They go bang every time. Hey, OP asked about the cheapest, here it is!
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Old April 8th, 2021, 01:13 AM #82
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Originally Posted by Cornelius View Post
I was suggesting that Colt commands a price far higher than I put their quality. They are decent rifles.

Heirloom longevity would relate to a lack of stacked tolerances that degrade the reliability of the rifle faster. This can be a common issue with cheap ARs. A rifle worth handing down that can survive the years and wear and still be solid as a rock. Some can, some can't. Its not a real term, I used it because I figured one could easily divine my meaning or general idea.
How would you even know regarding the stacked tolerances, especially if it's perfectly 100% functional now?

I would venture to guess than 97% (gotta leave that 3% out) of us here on MDS will never fire any single one of our guns enough to actually wear them out. A few will - serious trap and skeet guys will, and serious 3-gun and handgun competitors will. Serious benchrest guys will wear out guns.

With that in mind, the folks who are serious about it already spend a hefty amount on their guns, and the serious handgun competitors I've seen typically have several higher end guns in rotation, depending on which ones are functioning best or in the best state of repair. Those guys wear out guns. Most of us don't. How many of us on here are serious gunners? I know I'd like to shoot more, but I seriously doubt I'll ever wear out a gun even if stacked tolerances might cause premature wear after say...20,000 rounds? More?

Not even my Delton or PSA ARs.
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Old April 8th, 2021, 10:23 AM #83
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To the OP, nothing to laugh about. There are some good rifles that can be had for a good price.

I have two Delton rifles in my collection both have been reliable and fun to shoot. The older one has close to 2k rounds through it with no issues.
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Old April 8th, 2021, 10:29 AM #84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NeutronBlu View Post
Cheapest I've seen is polymer 80% lower with PSA rifle kit. Can't get much cheaper than that. But guess what? They work. They go bang every time. Hey, OP asked about the cheapest, here it is!
He said cheapest you would trust. Not just cheapest.
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Old April 8th, 2021, 10:39 AM #85
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Originally Posted by omegared24 View Post
He said cheapest you would trust. Not just cheapest.
I tend to agree with that - the poly 80 ARs are ok, but I've seen so many accounts of something breaking on them - usually it's at the takedown pin holes. If you can't keep it together physically, it's not going to work.

Conversely, although I'm sure it's happened on an aluminum frame too, I've never personally heard of that happening.

I wouldn't trust a poly 80, but I'd trust literally any other AR made from aluminum.
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Old April 8th, 2021, 10:46 AM #86
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To the OP, nothing to laugh about. There are some good rifles that can be had for a good price.

I have two Delton rifles in my collection both have been reliable and fun to shoot. The older one has close to 2k rounds through it with no issues.
I know of two guys with Deltons rifles with no complaints, 100% guns. I have a DelTon barrel on my 3 gun/multigun build and its 100% in the shooting I have done so far with it. No slouch parts in the gun but no DD parts either. It works and is accurate.

As I understand it, DelTon provided replacement parts to the military at one time. I don’t know about now. So they know the gun.
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Old April 8th, 2021, 11:03 AM #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trickg View Post
How would you even know regarding the stacked tolerances, especially if it's perfectly 100% functional now?

I would venture to guess than 97% (gotta leave that 3% out) of us here on MDS will never fire any single one of our guns enough to actually wear them out. A few will - serious trap and skeet guys will, and serious 3-gun and handgun competitors will. Serious benchrest guys will wear out guns.

With that in mind, the folks who are serious about it already spend a hefty amount on their guns, and the serious handgun competitors I've seen typically have several higher end guns in rotation, depending on which ones are functioning best or in the best state of repair. Those guys wear out guns. Most of us don't. How many of us on here are serious gunners? I know I'd like to shoot more, but I seriously doubt I'll ever wear out a gun even if stacked tolerances might cause premature wear after say...20,000 rounds? More?

Not even my Delton or PSA ARs.
You're 1000% right. Most people won't shoot 20k rounds through a rifle in their lifetime. Especially if they accumulate many rifles like most of us do. This kind of goes back to what I'm saying about buy once cry once. The only repairs or replacements that I want to make is a rebarreling, springs, a bolt and firing pins. I try to put at least 4k through my nicer ARs every year. Without shooting competition. So 20k can be achieved rather quickly. And if I'm handing something down I don't want it to be a rattling out-of-spec casual tier AR with a shot barrel. Again this is my personal opinion and I'm not trying to condescending to people who go a different route. It's just how I personally operate.

As far as stacking tolerances go. You'll either know right away with loose fitment, abnormal wear patterns, gassing and feeding issues, inaccuracy etc. Cheaper rifles are well known for these issues. You can take your rifle to a skilled armorer for inspection to help head off some of these issues before they compound and make a mess of your build or complete rifle.

It just lends to more problems. And then there's the mentality of those who cannot justify a 1500+ dollar rifle. They tend to not justify reliable optics, weapon lights. Even slings, mags and ammo. It makes for a very high chance of failure if one sort or another. Good components don't have to be expensive. And many are not. It's knowing what is and isn't worth the investment and ignoring all the snake oil campaigns. To me there's not enough of that info out there to average shooters.

I enjoy shooting quite a bit, and rifles that just run hard beg you to shoot them. I'd take a couple well built rifles over a pile of average ones any day. These companies like BCA and PSA and Anderson, while arming many Americans which is important, spend a lot of money convincing customers that their product, while costing half as much or less, is just as good and that their customers have beaten the system with their rifles. BCA, PSA and Anderson convince people that they charge less out of kindness and duty, that their rifles run just the same. And the occasional shooter may never know the difference. When the reality is that they pass quality control onto the consumer and innovation onto third parties.

It's a hard pill for some people to swallow. All I know is I'm glad I moved on from that phase where I had to justify costs and I'm a million times happier for it. Even for casual shooting, they are just more enjoyable because they just run better and I know if I had to hand it to someone to protect themselves with I won't be handing them a liability.

Just my take.
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Old April 8th, 2021, 11:59 AM #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cornelius View Post
You're 1000% right. Most people won't shoot 20k rounds through a rifle in their lifetime. Especially if they accumulate many rifles like most of us do. This kind of goes back to what I'm saying about buy once cry once. The only repairs or replacements that I want to make is a rebarreling, springs, a bolt and firing pins. I try to put at least 4k through my nicer ARs every year. Without shooting competition. So 20k can be achieved rather quickly. And if I'm handing something down I don't want it to be a rattling out-of-spec casual tier AR with a shot barrel. Again this is my personal opinion and I'm not trying to condescending to people who go a different route. It's just how I personally operate.

As far as stacking tolerances go. You'll either know right away with loose fitment, abnormal wear patterns, gassing and feeding issues, inaccuracy etc. Cheaper rifles are well known for these issues. You can take your rifle to a skilled armorer for inspection to help head off some of these issues before they compound and make a mess of your build or complete rifle.

It just lends to more problems. And then there's the mentality of those who cannot justify a 1500+ dollar rifle. They tend to not justify reliable optics, weapon lights. Even slings, mags and ammo. It makes for a very high chance of failure if one sort or another. Good components don't have to be expensive. And many are not. It's knowing what is and isn't worth the investment and ignoring all the snake oil campaigns. To me there's not enough of that info out there to average shooters.

I enjoy shooting quite a bit, and rifles that just run hard beg you to shoot them. I'd take a couple well built rifles over a pile of average ones any day. These companies like BCA and PSA and Anderson, while arming many Americans which is important, spend a lot of money convincing customers that their product, while costing half as much or less, is just as good and that their customers have beaten the system with their rifles. BCA, PSA and Anderson convince people that they charge less out of kindness and duty, that their rifles run just the same. And the occasional shooter may never know the difference. When the reality is that they pass quality control onto the consumer and innovation onto third parties.

It's a hard pill for some people to swallow. All I know is I'm glad I moved on from that phase where I had to justify costs and I'm a million times happier for it. Even for casual shooting, they are just more enjoyable because they just run better and I know if I had to hand it to someone to protect themselves with I won't be handing them a liability.

Just my take.
Ok - I think you and I are mostly on the same page - just maybe looking at things a bit differently.

I'm also at a point in my life where I don't buy cheap guns, and I don't buy cheap booze. I will buy mid-point on both, but I tend to gravitate toward a higher level of quality. I don't consider my ARs to be cheap, even though they are Delton and PSA builds. Both seem to be 100%, and at this point I've got a fair amount in each - enough that when compared to any of the typical handguns out there, they are comparative in costs.

(Handguns are a bit different - my last 3 handgun purchases were Dan Wesson (x2) and Sig, so...)

I think that maybe my hesitancy to dump a lot of money into an AR comes from the fact that I never really had a desire to own one until MD started telling me I couldn't have one. I still don't consider them to be "cheap" though. An 80 lower still isn't cheap - it's simply off the books, which is how I like it - and done properly on a good jig, they seem to be quite reliable.

I guess that when it comes to the AR, because they're modular - like Legos for adults - as long as the upper and lower are good, anything else can be easily upgraded or replaced.

I mentioned earlier in this thread that the awful, heavy, gritty triggers are both gone in my ARs, and replaced with drop-in cartridge style triggers - an easy replacement, and found on sale were very nice upgrades to what I already had.
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Old April 8th, 2021, 12:00 PM #89
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We all know top tier parts will typically exhibit greater longevity. But not much is said about the ‘entry level’ and ‘middle level’ tiers to make quantifiable decidions. An outstanding writer and AR smith/shooter has said there is nothing wrong with the service grade stuff even though it doesn’t fit the description of a good boutique brand rifle. In a book he wrote on the AR he shows a picture of a heavily used 3-gun rifle with all the ‘wrong stuff’ (according to other shooters using boutique brands). He further states the rifle runs and shoots well.

Armorers and smiths are the ones who will see greater tendencies if X brands doing whatever. I get that. I personally have yet to see a 223/5.56 chambered AR using good ammo malfunction in a 3/ multigun match. If a given receiver or any part is made of proper material to proper specification how can it be functionally inferior?

These companies like BCA and PSA and Anderson, while arming many Americans which is important, spend a lot of money convincing customers that their product, while costing half as much or less, is just as good and that their customers have beaten the system with their rifles. BCA, PSA and Anderson convince people that they charge less out of kindness and duty, that their rifles run just the same. ”

Do you have data on this?
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Old April 8th, 2021, 12:14 PM #90
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All things being equal (and they're not...), any AR is better than no AR...
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