HB1302-"The Neighborhood Bag Lady Can Take Your Guns" bill

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  • smkranz

    Certified Caveman
    MDS Supporter
    Feb 21, 2013
    4,350
    Carroll County
    But are you in violation of HB 1302 if you don't give the combination of your gun safe or tell them where every gun is that you own if you invoke your 5th A rights?



    I'm just looking for your opinion, not legal advice.



    Thanks!



    Yes I believe so. The ERPO orders the respondent to surrender firearms. Not doing so turns you into a criminal.


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    eruby

    Confederate Jew
    MDS Supporter
    I got the same thing. I plan to reply, quoting article 21 of the Maryland constitution.

    For ignorant wretches like me:

    http://msa.maryland.gov/msa/mdmanual/43const/html/00dec.html


    Art. 21. That in all criminal prosecutions, every man hath a right to be informed of the accusation against him; to have a copy of the Indictment, or charge, in due time (if required) to prepare for his defence; to be allowed counsel; to be confronted with the witnesses against him; to have process for his witnesses; to examine the witnesses for and against him on oath; and to a speedy trial by an impartial jury, without whose unanimous consent he ought not to be found guilty.
     

    daNattyFatty

    Ultimate Member
    Aug 27, 2009
    3,908
    Bel Air, MD
    Please include us all. I don't remember anywhere in the law where the police are liable for damages to your firearms. I must go back and painfully read this abomination!



    Current state law in reference to firearms surrender upon service of protective orders states that LE has to transport in protective cases, if available. Now if they don’t when cases were available, then I assume they’d be civilly liable.

    Guess you’d have to hire a lawyer after the fact to find out how that turns out.


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    esqappellate

    President, MSI
    Feb 12, 2012
    7,407
    Current state law in reference to firearms surrender upon service of protective orders states that LE has to transport in protective cases, if available. Now if they don’t when cases were available, then I assume they’d be civilly liable.

    Guess you’d have to hire a lawyer after the fact to find out how that turns out.


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    This is what HB 1302 states:

    (2) A LAW ENFORCEMENT AGENCY SHALL TRANSPORT AND STORE ANY FIREARM SURRENDERED OR SEIZED IN ACCORDANCE WITH AN EXTREME RISK PROTECTIVE ORDER:
    (I) IN A PROTECTIVE CASE, IF ONE IS AVAILABLE; AND
    (II) IN A MANNER INTENDED TO PREVENT DAMAGE TO THE FIREARM DURING THE TIME THE EXTREME RISK PROTECTIVE ORDER IS IN EFFECT.
    (3) A LAW ENFORCEMENT AGENCY MAY NOT PLACE ANY MARK ON A SEIZED OR SURRENDERED FIREARM FOR IDENTIFICATION OR OTHER PURPOSES
     

    daNattyFatty

    Ultimate Member
    Aug 27, 2009
    3,908
    Bel Air, MD
    This is what HB 1302 states:



    (2) A LAW ENFORCEMENT AGENCY SHALL TRANSPORT AND STORE ANY FIREARM SURRENDERED OR SEIZED IN ACCORDANCE WITH AN EXTREME RISK PROTECTIVE ORDER:

    (I) IN A PROTECTIVE CASE, IF ONE IS AVAILABLE; AND

    (II) IN A MANNER INTENDED TO PREVENT DAMAGE TO THE FIREARM DURING THE TIME THE EXTREME RISK PROTECTIVE ORDER IS IN EFFECT.

    (3) A LAW ENFORCEMENT AGENCY MAY NOT PLACE ANY MARK ON A SEIZED OR SURRENDERED FIREARM FOR IDENTIFICATION OR OTHER PURPOSES



    Can inferences be made that civil liability would then be the case? Or is it totally a matter for trial?


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    Hawkeye

    The Leatherstocking
    Jan 29, 2009
    3,971
    Does the law specifically provide for confiscation of ammo, magazines, or anything besides the actual firearms?

    Firearms and ammunition only.

    and if said person has so much stuff that he may not remember where it is?

    possessions still 9/10's of the law so non md regulated guns somewhere else can be given away or sold for 1 cent ahead of time.

    If this happens to you (service in person, at least, you might get lucky if they serve you by mail and don't show up to take the guns right away) there will be no "ahead of time." It will be "Mr. Jim, we are here to serve an Interim ERPO on you. Surrender your guns now."

    Ok thanks for your insight.

    Like others have observed, this seems to closely parallel peace/protective orders. From my experience as an officer, we’re not forcibly entering a person’s residence (absent a search warrant) to serve a peace or protective order. Those orders also state that the respondent may be arrested if LEO has probable cause to believe they violated the order. That said, if they haven’t been served with the order, then how can they know what they can/can’t do?

    We actually run into that situation fairly regularly. A petitioner calls up saying that respondent is violating the order, we check order status and find that it hasn’t been served, thus no crime committed yet.

    Or petitioner calls, says order needs to be served, respondent is home. We show up, no answer at door. “Sorry Mr/Mrs Petitioner, we cant kick down the door”. Same thing with Emergency Petition service.


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    Thanks for relaying your experience in the field on this. This is going to be a shitshow for everyone, but I feel for the cop who is told "This guy is dangerous and has guns. Now go take them all away because he said something scary this one time."

    Please include us all. I don't remember anywhere in the law where the police are liable for damages to your firearms. I must go back and painfully read this abomination!

    They are not liable. As Mark pointed out, the law only says how they "should" be transported (if cases are available) and that they may not be marked. It doesn't say anything about where they will be stored, what condition they must be kept or returned in, none of it.
     

    iH8DemLibz

    When All Else Fails.
    Apr 1, 2013
    25,396
    Libtardistan
    Will every firearm, in 100% pristine condition, be photographed and serial number recorded PRIOR to the firearm being seized and taken into custody?

    Will every round, box, case, and crate of ammunition be inventoried and documented PRIOR to the ammunition being seized and taken into custody?

    If not, how will the Respondent seek damages against the state for missing and damaged property?
     

    daNattyFatty

    Ultimate Member
    Aug 27, 2009
    3,908
    Bel Air, MD
    HB1302-"The Neighborhood Bag Lady Can Take Your Guns" bill

    Thanks for relaying your experience in the field on this. This is going to be a shitshow for everyone, but I feel for the cop who is told "This guy is dangerous and has guns. Now go take them all away because he said something scary this one time."


    And that’s the thing. Yeah it may just be two patrol officers, or it might be a SWAT team.

    No good. Any of it.

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    esqappellate

    President, MSI
    Feb 12, 2012
    7,407
    Can inferences be made that civil liability would then be the case? Or is it totally a matter for trial?


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    Not legal advice: The statute establishes a legal duty. A negligent or malicious or willful failure to carry out the legal duty is generally a civil tort. Tortious acts or omissions are actionable civilly under either the Maryland Tort Claims Act or the Maryland Local Government Tort Claims Act. That may include personal liability of the employee for conduct taken with actual malice.
     

    NoMoreTreadingOnUs

    Active Member
    Apr 2, 2013
    159
    Garrett County
    Does anyone know if, in the event this is not vetoed, there will be any way for the public to track the frequency of use, circumstances, disposition, etc of this new law? Would this information be included in MD Case Search?
     

    Adolph Oliver Bush

    Ultimate Member
    Patriot Picket
    Dec 13, 2015
    1,940
    Will every firearm, in 100% pristine condition, be photographed and serial number recorded PRIOR to the firearm being seized and taken into custody?

    Will every round, box, case, and crate of ammunition be inventoried and documented PRIOR to the ammunition being seized and taken into custody?

    If not, how will the Respondent seek damages against the state for missing and damaged property?

    What about guns without serial numbers?


    And I need to dig through the constitutions again. Got to be something on there about the popo just showing up and taking your shit.
     

    Dogmeat

    Ultimate Member
    Apr 5, 2013
    4,641
    Montgomery County, MD
    Thank you all for your insight and opinions on this Charlie Foxtrot out of the GA. If it weren't for needing to care for my parents, I think this would be the final incentive for me to GTFO of Maryland. Born here, lived my entire life her, family on my Mother's side does back to the early 1800's (maybe before), but the complete disregard for the Rule of Law and the Rights of Citizens is just appalling. Living in MoCo, I am used to being disgusted, but this is beyond the pale.

    All I see coming out of this is a lot of armed confrontations. Just imagine the outcry from politicians who represent Baltimore when the honest folks in Baltimore (yes, there are some!) start saying that WhatsHisName down the street has a gun and is a threat to the neighborhood. The police would be busy 24/7 just serving the EPROs and searching houses. Fortunately, Baltimore should have lots of excess warehouse space that used to hold all of those untested cartridge cases (of course, they will probably retain those as potential evidence forever!).

    We are also going to have to change the state moto from - "Maryland, The Free State" - to "Maryland, The Search & Seize State". :sad20:
     

    esqappellate

    President, MSI
    Feb 12, 2012
    7,407
    Will every firearm, in 100% pristine condition, be photographed and serial number recorded PRIOR to the firearm being seized and taken into custody?

    Will every round, box, case, and crate of ammunition be inventoried and documented PRIOR to the ammunition being seized and taken into custody?

    If not, how will the Respondent seek damages against the state for missing and damaged property?

    Folks need to read the Bill.

    5–608.
    (A) (1) A LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICER WHO TAKES POSSESSION OF A FIREARM OR AMMUNITION IN ACCORDANCE WITH AN EXTREME RISK PROTECTIVE ORDER SHALL, AT THE TIME THE FIREARM OR AMMUNITION IS SURRENDERED OR SEIZED:

    (I) ISSUE A RECEIPT IDENTIFYING, BY MAKE, MODEL, AND SERIAL NUMBER, ALL FIREARMS AND AMMUNITION THAT HAVE BEEN SURRENDERED OR SEIZED;
    (II) PROVIDE A COPY OF THE RECEIPT TO THE RESPONDENT;
    (III) RETAIN A COPY OF THE RECEIPT; AND
    (IV) PROVIDE INFORMATION TO THE RESPONDENT ON THE PROCESS FOR RETAKING POSSESSION OF THE FIREARMS AND AMMUNITION ON THE EXPIRATION OR TERMINATION OF THE ORDER.
     

    iH8DemLibz

    When All Else Fails.
    Apr 1, 2013
    25,396
    Libtardistan
    What about guns without serial numbers?


    And I need to dig through the constitutions again. Got to be something on there about the popo just showing up and taking your shit.

    What about Flintlock rifles and pistols and shotguns?

    What about Percussion Lock rifles and pistols and shotguns?

    What about Cap-N-Ball revolvers?

    What about rifles, pistols, and shotguns that fall under Antique status?

    Everything I just listed is not, by definition, by ATF regulations, a firearm.
     

    daNattyFatty

    Ultimate Member
    Aug 27, 2009
    3,908
    Bel Air, MD
    Does anyone know if, in the event this is not vetoed, there will be any way for the public to track the frequency of use, circumstances, disposition, etc of this new law? Would this information be included in MD Case Search?



    Peace and protective orders will show up in case search, but you need a name or case number to search. I don’t know if they would enter these orders. If they do, then just like the other orders, you’d probably need a name or case number.

    Otherwise, I assume that it will require a PIA request to every agency that you want info from.


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    XCheckR

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Mar 20, 2013
    4,200
    HdG
    Will every firearm, in 100% pristine condition, be photographed and serial number recorded PRIOR to the firearm being seized and taken into custody?

    Will every round, box, case, and crate of ammunition be inventoried and documented PRIOR to the ammunition being seized and taken into custody?

    If not, how will the Respondent seek damages against the state for missing and damaged property?

    another reason to keep your own inventory pictures
     

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