NFA trust sale, $59

OnTarget · Jan 21, 2016

Hawkeye said:
Couple of things:

First, you don't necessarily need a trust to handle inheritance. It does make it somewhat easier in that you can specify exactly who you want to become trustee after your death, and that person effectively gains control of whatever property the trust has at that point. For example, in my trust I am the sole trustee, but my wife is set up as a successor trustee and my son as the beneficiary. If I die or become incapacitated, my wife becomes a full trustee and has the duty to administer the trust for the benefit of my son. (i.e. until he is old enough to become a full trustee and have possession of the items in the trust.)

If you personally own NFA items (i.e. they are registered to you, not to a trust) your heirs can still inherit them tax free. It just requires ATF paperwork and they'll be administered with the rest of your estate, which may mean probate, etc depending on how you have things set up.

Second, remember that items in a trust do not belong to you and are not your property. They are the property of the trust. Thus, when you die, your will or how your estate is handled has no bearing on what happens to items that are property of the trust. Those will be administered according to what is written in the trust itself. Thus, if you have a trust that owns some NFA firearms, and you specify in your will what is to be done with your firearms when you die, that has zero bearing on what happens to those NFA firearms which belong to the trust, because they are not your legal property.

Very helpful. Thanks!. That last paragraph really put things in perspective. Appreciate your taking the time to reply.

OnTarget · Jan 21, 2016

Hawkeye: Can my wife be a co-trustee as well as the only beneficiary, me being the primary trustee?

Hawkeye · Jan 21, 2016

OnTarget said:
Very helpful. Thanks!. That last paragraph really put things in perspective. Appreciate your taking the time to reply.

Any time. I am one of those guys who does a metric ton of research when I get in to something like this, and if someone can benefit from the hours and hours of reading I did then I'm all for it.

OnTarget said:
Hawkeye: Can my wife be a co-trustee as well as the only beneficiary, me being the primary trustee?

First: IANAL, etc.

That said: from my understanding of it, if you set yourself and your wife up as co-trustees, I don't know that there is a purpose of naming her a beneficiary as well. Should you die, she, as a full trustee, would automatically maintain full rights to all of the property of the trust.

It is my understanding (which may be flawed) that you basically use a beneficiary of a trust when there is someone whom you would like to have the benefit of the property in the trust without the ability to actually have access to it. The common version of this is when you hear about "trust fund kids" or whatever - a rich parent or grandparent puts a ton of money in a trust, and the kid is the beneficiary. They have no access to the lump sum in the trust, but depending on how it's written, they might get a monthly stipend paid to them out of the trust. As far as that relates to an NFA trust, use me for an example. My son is 7. He can't legally have access to the NFA items in the trust until he's 21. Thus, my wife will succeed me as trustee should I die before he reaches majority, and will hold the trust for him until he turns 21, at which time he can be made a trustee and have access.

I set my wife up as successor trustee because in my case she's not a gun person, doesn't want to know about them, use them, etc. She doesn't care that I have them, but wants nothing to do with them herself. This way they are still "out of mind" to her while I'm alive, but should something happen to me she can effectually hold them for my son until he's 21.

Assuming that nothing catastrophic happens, I will add my son as a full trustee once he turns 21.

Hawkeye · Jan 21, 2016

Or to clarify a little more:

To my understanding (and again, IANAL and all that) there are basically three types of persons in relation to a trust:

A trustee, who has full access to administer the trust and it's property in any way allowed by the trust.
A successor trustee, who has no rights to the trust as long as there is a trustee who is not either dead or incapacitated. Upon the death or incapacitation of all full trustees, this person will "succeed" them into the role of full trustee.
A beneficiary, who is the person for who's eventual benefit the property in the trust is being held.

OnTarget · Jan 21, 2016

Hawkeye said:
Any time. I am one of those guys who does a metric ton of research when I get in to something like this, and if someone can benefit from the hours and hours of reading I did then I'm all for it.

First: IANAL, etc.

That said: from my understanding of it, if you set yourself and your wife up as co-trustees, I don't know that there is a purpose of naming her a beneficiary as well. Should you die, she, as a full trustee, would automatically maintain full rights to all of the property of the trust.

It is my understanding (which may be flawed) that you basically use a beneficiary of a trust when there is someone whom you would like to have the benefit of the property in the trust without the ability to actually have access to it. The common version of this is when you hear about "trust fund kids" or whatever - a rich parent or grandparent puts a ton of money in a trust, and the kid is the beneficiary. They have no access to the lump sum in the trust, but depending on how it's written, they might get a monthly stipend paid to them out of the trust. As far as that relates to an NFA trust, use me for an example. My son is 7. He can't legally have access to the NFA items in the trust until he's 21. Thus, my wife will succeed me as trustee should I die before he reaches majority, and will hold the trust for him until he turns 21, at which time he can be made a trustee and have access.

I set my wife up as successor trustee because in my case she's not a gun person, doesn't want to know about them, use them, etc. She doesn't care that I have them, but wants nothing to do with them herself. This way they are still "out of mind" to her while I'm alive, but should something happen to me she can effectually hold them for my son until he's 21.

Assuming that nothing catastrophic happens, I will add my son as a full trustee once he turns 21.

Again, thanks! Does the 199Trust make provision for this type of setup, such as, the one you described above? Does it mention successor trustees?

Hawkeye · Jan 21, 2016

OnTarget said:
Again, thanks! Does the 199Trust make provision for this type of setup, such as, the one you described above? Does it mention successor trustees?

It does. I got my trust from them, and I have both a successor trustee and a beneficiary.

Hawkeye · Jan 21, 2016

Oh: and the other thing about the way that the 199Trust.com trusts are written is that they are a living trust, and any of the full trustees may edit or change them at any time. Thus, if you get one and you later want to change it, you can. Or you can take it to a lawyer and have them go over it and or re-write it for you.

OnTarget · Jan 21, 2016

Hawkeye said:
It does. I got my trust from them, and I have both a successor trustee and a beneficiary.

I'm much like you. Once I get buried in a subject matter, I really research it thoroughly! :thumbsup:

I guess "intense" is the word.

OnTarget · Jan 21, 2016

When you order from 199Trust, do they give a period of time to get it filled out? I want to order, but may not get to completing it for a while (week ot two/three).

Hawkeye · Jan 21, 2016

OnTarget said:
When you order from 199Trust, do they give a period of time to get it filled out? I want to order, but may not get to completing it for a while (week ot two/three).

When I ordered from them, here's now it went:

When you start the purchase, there is an online form you fill out. It lists things like:

Name and address of the settlor (the person who is creating the trust by giving it property) and primary trustee (these are often the same person), the name of any additional trustees, successor trustees, beneficiaries, etc. Also what you want to name the trust (which should generally be kept short - both for eForms and to make it easier to engrave).

Then you pay your money and in a day or so they email you a completed trust document along with a Schedule A (the list of property held by the trust), a declaration and certification of trust, etc.

All of that paperwork is left un-dated and (obviously) un-signed. It is up to you to get a Notary and witnesses to do their thing (the paperwork they give you requires two witnesses in addition to the Notary) and sign and date the paperwork whenever you're ready. I did mine about a week after I got it, but there's no reason you couldn't do it sooner or later than that. Whenever you're ready, you print it out, get it all notarized and signed and witnessed, and you're all set.

After I got mine all done, I took it and scanned the signed / notarized paperwork to make a pdf to use for eForms.

They also provide templates to make modifications to the trust at any time in the future should you want to use them.

They have a youtube video that covers some of this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vFPl1K2oOSM

OnTarget · Jan 21, 2016

With me as primary trustee, and the wife as successor trustee, do I need to have a safe?

Hawkeye · Jan 21, 2016

OnTarget said:
With me as primary trustee, and the wife as successor trustee, do I need to have a safe?

That's honestly a little beyond my expertise.

My guess would be that as successor trustee, your wife doesn't have rights to any of the trust's property until you die or are incapacitated, so you would have to have a safe if she is a successor.

However, if you don't have kids or anyone else to hold the property for, I would just set her up as a full trustee, as long as you don't mind her having access to and or power over the property.

OnTarget · Jan 22, 2016

Hawkeye said:
That's honestly a little beyond my expertise.

My guess would be that as successor trustee, your wife doesn't have rights to any of the trust's property until you die or are incapacitated, so you would have to have a safe if she is a successor.

However, if you don't have kids or anyone else to hold the property for, I would just set her up as a full trustee, as long as you don't mind her having access to and or power over the property.

I'd like tp place wife as successor trustee, because she won't have to sign the trust, therefore, not needing a notory for her (only me). However, could a locked closet, say, one with a deadbolt, be used instead of a safe. This would be to make the Class III item unavailable to the wife and to comply legally. For now, this seems to be the last question mark that I have, so as to proceed with initiating the trust.

Overboost44 · Jan 22, 2016

I don't get anything for saying this, but why don't you all spend a few more dollars and go to www.potomacguntrusts.com and get one from Russ Roby?

He is a lawyer. He is offering 15 or 20% off for MDS members. Check his thread or forum for codes.

dontpanic · Jan 22, 2016

OnTarget said:
I'd like tp place wife as successor trustee, because she won't have to sign the trust, therefore, not needing a notory for her (only me). However, could a locked closet, say, one with a deadbolt, be used instead of a safe. This would be to make the Class III item unavailable to the wife and to comply legally. For now, this seems to be the last question mark that I have, so as to proceed with initiating the trust.

It does not specify the device used to secure them. You need to bar access to people who are not approved to possess your NFA items. While a safe is probably best, you can secure it in other ways.

This kind of sums it up:

https://www.guntrustlawyer.com/2009/03/where-can-my-nfa-firearms-be-s.html

OnTarget · Jan 22, 2016

Overboost44 said:
I don't get anything for saying this, but why don't you all spend a few more dollars and go to www.potomacguntrusts.com and get one from Russ Roby?

He is a lawyer. He is offering 15 or 20% off for MDS members. Check his thread or forum for codes.

Yes, but I don't think that one can lawyer up with him, if from WV. I committed to 199Trust.

OnTarget · Jan 22, 2016

dontpanic said:
It does not specify the device ysed to secure them. You need to bar access to people who are not approved to pissess your NFA items. While a safe is probably best, you can secure it in other ways.

This kind of sums it up:

https://www.guntrustlawyer.com/2009/03/where-can-my-nfa-firearms-be-s.html

Thanks for link. I would add that an ADT security system would be of value in these matters, at least, so it seems to me.

Overboost44 · Jan 22, 2016

OnTarget said:
Yes, but I don't think that that one can lawyer up with him, if from WV. I committed to 199Trust.

Ahh, I missed that you were from WV.

NFA trust sale, $59

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