Actually looking forward to ML season next month

KIBarrister · Nov 9, 2020

After several frustrating years with a standard black powder inline I managed to find a like new Savage 10ML-ii - and I find myself looking forward to muzzle loader season.

I know this is an unlikely request given their rarity, but anyone have any favorite smokeless loadings to recommend?

Abuck · Nov 9, 2020

Is that the one with possible barrel issues?
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.fo...savage-arms-to-court-over-exploding-rifle.amp

That can happen to any ML that is loaded too hot, but be aware to not load up to max, or even near max loads. Always follow recommendations from the manufacturer. You can probably contact them for a manual.

That said, I have a .54 CVA Firebolt, and use 2 of the 60g Pyrodex pellets. They do the trick, have always gone off for me, with any size cap.

I could work up a load of loose powder for accuracy, but I usually crawl in the thick stuff. I have no issues at 100 yards, but most of my shooting is within bow range. If I was shooting farther, I’d probably go with a smaller caliber anyways.

Good luck, and happy hunting!

rseymorejr · Nov 9, 2020

My son uses 2 white hot pellets along with the bullet with an attached sabot. He loves that combo

Doco Overboard · Nov 9, 2020

I use 42 gr. IMR 4759 250 G.452 xtp.
150 yd zero.
Been using it for years.
Don’t forget to remove the ramrod or double load, Not completely seat the projie or volume charge.
If some one is distracting you when loading, ask them to leave the area.

Never had a problem with ignition ,hang-fire or in the field performance.
Every once in a while I’ll clean the bore with Ed’s red or a solvent to remove the nylon fouling from the mmp high pressure sabots.
Bout every 50 shots so loading remains relatively easy.

KIBarrister · Nov 9, 2020

Abuck said:
Is that the one with possible barrel issues?
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.fo...savage-arms-to-court-over-exploding-rifle.amp

That can happen to any ML that is loaded too hot, but be aware to not load up to max, or even near max loads. Always follow recommendations from the manufacturer. You can probably contact them for a manual.

That said, I have a .54 CVA Firebolt, and use 2 of the 60g Pyrodex pellets. They do the trick, have always gone off for me, with any size cap.

I could work up a load of loose powder for accuracy, but I usually crawl in the thick stuff. I have no issues at 100 yards, but most of my shooting is within bow range. If I was shooting farther, I’d probably go with a smaller caliber anyways.

Good luck, and happy hunting!

Yeah, I had heard that - IIRC it was suggested to be an issue with not looking out for breech wear. I don't plan on pushing the limit for loads

I think there is also some likelihood that using blackpowder without cleaning caused corrosion that ultimately lead to failure.

rseymorejr said:
My son uses 2 white hot pellets along with the bullet with an attached sabot. He loves that combo

White Hots was what I used, but I am looking forward to not dealing with fouling (or destruction from not cleaning immediately).

Doco Overboard said:
I use 42 gr. IMR 4759 250 G.452 xtp.
150 yd zero.
Been using it for years.
Don’t forget to remove the ramrod or double load, Not completely seat the projie or volume charge.
If some one is distracting you when loading, ask them to leave the area.

Never had a problem with ignition ,hang-fire or in the field performance.
Every once in a while I’ll clean the bore with Ed’s red or a solvent to remove the nylon fouling from the mmp high pressure sabots.
Bout every 50 shots so loading remains relatively easy.

That is the load I keep coming back to while looking on the interwebs - thanks for the heads up on the nylon fouling! I hadn't thought of that... :thumbsup:

fidelity · Nov 9, 2020

KIBarrister said:
...
White Hots was what I used, but I am looking forward to not dealing with fouling (or destruction from not cleaning immediately).
...

I'm no expert, but a lot of folks seem to be happy with Blackhorn 209, switching to this substitute from Pyrodex/777/white hot subsitutes.

It does best with ballistol + water cleanings, and folks report shooting 30-50 times in succession without having to clean the bore at the range. There are mixed reports about how less corrosive it is after a range trip if you don't clean in a timely manner.

I recently got my first ML, a T/C Impact, and will best testing the Blackhorn in a week or two.

dbledoc · Nov 9, 2020

https://www.chuckhawks.com/savage_10ML_loads_2008.htm

Is a great source for loads, etc...
Never has a problem with mine.

lazarus · Nov 9, 2020

KIBarrister said:
Yeah, I had heard that - IIRC it was suggested to be an issue with not looking out for breech wear. I don't plan on pushing the limit for loads I think there is also some likelihood that using blackpowder without cleaning caused corrosion that ultimately lead to failure.

White Hots was what I used, but I am looking forward to not dealing with fouling (or destruction from not cleaning immediately).

That is the load I keep coming back to while looking on the interwebs - thanks for the heads up on the nylon fouling! I hadn't thought of that...

Blackhorn 209 is what you want then. Off the bench I don’t have issues loading after 15+ round without swabbing. I clean after a range session a little, but you don’t generally need to. Residue is not corrosive. I had some odd red buildup from something last season, but it cleaned right off. No corrosion of anything after not cleaning properly at the end of the season. Accurate as hell. Can tolerate some moisture and ignites fine.

dink · Nov 10, 2020

Stick with smokeless. I've never shot BP out of mine, waste of a unique gun. To me, shooting BP out of it is like having a Ferrari, putting 89 gas in it and driving on dirt roads in 2nd gear, hahaha. Randy Wakeman's site has an extensive collection of articles on this gun, including preferred loads...lots of great info there. My preferred loads: 300gr Barnes Original in an orange mmp sabot on top of 60gr of Vitavouri N120 = 450 marlin (= hot 45-70) load. Have taken deer and hogs out to 200yds with this, and have shot it accurately out to 250 on paper. Easily MOA performance. Would love to use it on a moose. For something more comfortable to shoot, 250gr Hornady xtp in black mmp sabot on 43-44 gr of Accurate 5744 =20 gauge ballistics. Easier on the shoulder and the powder is also much easier to find. (The vv is scarce, gotta grab it when you see it) Would use this out to 150yds. The gun is awesome, the "barrel issues" is bs...obviously over loaded, which is easy to do with smokeless, so be careful. Savage builds this like a tank and I will never sell mine. Extremely accurate loads, and CLEAN!

Doco Overboard · Nov 10, 2020

dink said:
Stick with smokeless. I've never shot BP out of mine, waste of a unique gun. To me, shooting BP out of it is like having a Ferrari, putting 89 gas in it and driving on dirt roads in 2nd gear, hahaha. Randy Wakeman's site has an extensive collection of articles on this gun, including preferred loads...lots of great info there. My preferred loads: 300gr Barnes Original in an orange mmp sabot on top of 60gr of Vitavouri N120 = 450 marlin (= hot 45-70) load. Have taken deer and hogs out to 200yds with this, and have shot it accurately out to 250 on paper. Easily MOA performance. Would love to use it on a moose. For something more comfortable to shoot, 250gr Hornady xtp in black mmp sabot on 43-44 gr of Accurate 5744 =20 gauge ballistics. Easier on the shoulder and the powder is also much easier to find. (The vv is scarce, gotta grab it when you see it) Would use this out to 150yds. The gun is awesome, the "barrel issues" is bs...obviously over loaded, which is easy to do with smokeless, so be careful. Savage builds this like a tank and I will never sell mine. Extremely accurate loads, and CLEAN!

Sums it up nicely. The IMR canister powders developed for shooting are about gone or very hard to find.
AA is what ill be using sometime in the future.
Ill save the BP or substitutes for the guns designed to shoot them only.
I notice with the xtp's you don't want to drive them too fast because of bullet breakup.
Even so, for big deer it just flattens them.
They are, big heavy guns with a telescope but not to awful bad.
I rigged mine with a GI cotton sling and QD swivels. Cleaned the sights off for going in the brush/briars.
Plastic stock is OK at best but couldn't get wood when I bought it. Its pillared and repeatable however so I never seen the need to mess with it.
Works too well as it is-pretty hard to beat rig.

KIBarrister · Nov 10, 2020

dink said:
Stick with smokeless. I've never shot BP out of mine, waste of a unique gun. To me, shooting BP out of it is like having a Ferrari, putting 89 gas in it and driving on dirt roads in 2nd gear, hahaha. Randy Wakeman's site has an extensive collection of articles on this gun, including preferred loads...lots of great info there. My preferred loads: 300gr Barnes Original in an orange mmp sabot on top of 60gr of Vitavouri N120 = 450 marlin (= hot 45-70) load. Have taken deer and hogs out to 200yds with this, and have shot it accurately out to 250 on paper. Easily MOA performance. Would love to use it on a moose. For something more comfortable to shoot, 250gr Hornady xtp in black mmp sabot on 43-44 gr of Accurate 5744 =20 gauge ballistics. Easier on the shoulder and the powder is also much easier to find. (The vv is scarce, gotta grab it when you see it) Would use this out to 150yds. The gun is awesome, the "barrel issues" is bs...obviously over loaded, which is easy to do with smokeless, so be careful. Savage builds this like a tank and I will never sell mine. Extremely accurate loads, and CLEAN!

Doco Overboard said:
Sums it up nicely. The IMR canister powders developed for shooting are about gone or very hard to find.
AA is what ill be using sometime in the future.
Ill save the BP or substitutes for the guns designed to shoot them only.
I notice with the xtp's you don't want to drive them too fast because of bullet breakup.
Even so, for big deer it just flattens them.
They are, big heavy guns with a telescope but not to awful bad.
I rigged mine with a GI cotton sling and QD swivels. Cleaned the sights off for going in the brush/briars.
Plastic stock is OK at best but couldn't get wood when I bought it. Its pillared and repeatable however so I never seen the need to mess with it.
Works too well as it is-pretty hard to beat rig.

Randy Wakeman’s was the site I found - but I wanted to make sure it was GTG. There is lots of cool of stuff out there on that internet, but plenty of dangerous stuff too

IIRC Randy spoke very highly of pairing accurate with 300 grain. If 150 yards is the top end that will work nicely - the longest shot from my stand will be 160 yards, but the game trail is at 120, so I should be in good stead.

Are y’all using powder cups or weighing each charge? I have a balance scale and an electric Lyman so I was inclined to weigh them (or at the very least weigh several powder cup pours to check for weight and consistency.

GutPile · Nov 10, 2020

Im looking forward to late season in general. Bow snow is awesome.

lazarus · Nov 10, 2020

Doco Overboard said:
Sums it up nicely. The IMR canister powders developed for shooting are about gone or very hard to find.
AA is what ill be using sometime in the future.
Ill save the BP or substitutes for the guns designed to shoot them only.
I notice with the xtp's you don't want to drive them too fast because of bullet breakup.
Even so, for big deer it just flattens them.
They are, big heavy guns with a telescope but not to awful bad.
I rigged mine with a GI cotton sling and QD swivels. Cleaned the sights off for going in the brush/briars.
Plastic stock is OK at best but couldn't get wood when I bought it. Its pillared and repeatable however so I never seen the need to mess with it.
Works too well as it is-pretty hard to beat rig.

I highly recommend mags for that. .44 magnums, especially heavier bullets handle the velocities just fine. I've got 300gr 44 mags up in the 1900fps range and they work just fine even at close ranges. The 45 XTPs have more issues at short ranges if pushed hard.

lazarus · Nov 10, 2020

KIBarrister said:
Randy Wakeman’s was the site I found - but I wanted to make sure it was GTG. There is lots of cool of stuff out there on that internet, but plenty of dangerous stuff too

IIRC Randy spoke very highly of pairing accurate with 300 grain. If 150 yards is the top end that will work nicely - the longest shot from my stand will be 160 yards, but the game trail is at 120, so I should be in good stead.

Are y’all using powder cups or weighing each charge? I have a balance scale and an electric Lyman so I was inclined to weigh them (or at the very least weigh several powder cup pours to check for weight and consistency.

IMHO, I'd get some BH209 powder vials https://www.amazon.com/WESTERN-POWDERS-INC-Blackhorn-Measuring/dp/B006MOF8A0

Works great to pre-measure charges. Keeps moisture out, though less of an issue for BH209 and smokeless than it is for black powder and regular substitutes. A couple of pre-measured charges from last year I loaded up on the bench and they all shot to within half an inch of the bull as well as a fresh charge (3 shot ragged hole).

I would not rely on the markings on the tube. I'd weigh smokeless and load up the vials. Going to get best accuracy that way. In my case, I'd setup my powder measure dropper and go that way. Fill up a dozen vials and call it a season.

dbledoc · Nov 10, 2020

KIBarrister said:
Randy Wakeman’s was the site I found - but I wanted to make sure it was GTG. There is lots of cool of stuff out there on that internet, but plenty of dangerous stuff too

IIRC Randy spoke very highly of pairing accurate with 300 grain. If 150 yards is the top end that will work nicely - the longest shot from my stand will be 160 yards, but the game trail is at 120, so I should be in good stead.

Are y’all using powder cups or weighing each charge? I have a balance scale and an electric Lyman so I was inclined to weigh them (or at the very least weigh several powder cup pours to check for weight and consistency.

I weigh each charge and keep them in plastic powder tubes or you can use plastic test tubes.

Doco Overboard · Nov 10, 2020

lazarus said:
I highly recommend mags for that. .44 magnums, especially heavier bullets handle the velocities just fine. I've got 300gr 44 mags up in the 1900fps range and they work just fine even at close ranges. The 45 XTPs have more issues at short ranges if pushed hard.

Thanks for your recommendations in bullet selection.
Did you determine your findings from loading and shooting a smokeless ML II with 44 cal bullets?

For the other poster, I carefully weigh each charge for my rifle.
However,
Using a dipper is a also a workable solution for doing load development or field use as long as results are satisfactory.

Bullfrog · Nov 10, 2020

Actually looking forward to ML season next month

The first time I saw this when glancing at thread titles, I read it as MIL season. Now I can't unsee it. I keep wondering if MIL is going to have an unpleasant surprise when the family gets together for Thanksgiving.

Are you allowed to hunt them over bait in MD?

KIBarrister · Nov 10, 2020

Bullfrog said:
The first time I saw this when glancing at thread titles, I read it as MIL season. Now I can't unsee it. I keep wondering if MIL is going to have an unpleasant surprise when the family gets together for Thanksgiving.

Are you allowed to hunt them over bait in MD?

I can’t care how much the license would cost, filling that tag would be worth it

KIBarrister · Nov 10, 2020

lazarus said:
IMHO, I'd get some BH209 powder vials https://www.amazon.com/WESTERN-POWDERS-INC-Blackhorn-Measuring/dp/B006MOF8A0

Works great to pre-measure charges. Keeps moisture out, though less of an issue for BH209 and smokeless than it is for black powder and regular substitutes. A couple of pre-measured charges from last year I loaded up on the bench and they all shot to within half an inch of the bull as well as a fresh charge (3 shot ragged hole).

I would not rely on the markings on the tube. I'd weigh smokeless and load up the vials. Going to get best accuracy that way. In my case, I'd setup my powder measure dropper and go that way. Fill up a dozen vials and call it a season.

dbledoc said:
I weigh each charge and keep them in plastic powder tubes or you can use plastic test tubes.

That was exactly what I was planning! Even had those tubes in my Carr ready to go!

lazarus · Nov 10, 2020

Doco Overboard said:
Thanks for your recommendations in bullet selection.
Did you determine your findings from loading and shooting a smokeless ML II with 44 cal bullets?

For the other poster, I carefully weigh each charge for my rifle.
However,
Using a dipper is a also a workable solution for doing load development or field use as long as results are satisfactory.

Nope. But I've seen them pushed to over 2000fps and whack deer, including shoulders, at close range from others and they hold together just fine. I've hit a couple of deer with 240 and 300gr 44 mags at ~2100fps MV for the 240 and 1900 for the 300gr at fairly close range and the bullet held together in both cases.

XTP 44 mags are supposed to be rated for optimal expansion from 1200-2200fps.

The 45 mags (specifically magnums) are rated similarly. The 45 non-magnums have a maximum expansion velocity of 1700fps, but down to around 800fps.

Actually looking forward to ML season next month

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