Button Instead Of Trigger

DaemonAssassin · Dec 21, 2018

Pinecone said:
Harder to do when you are holding the firearm. With an aircraft stick, you are not holding it up.

And my favorite A-10 guy just leveled the forest. :lol2:

Blacksmith101 · Dec 21, 2018

DaemonAssassin said:
It still comes down to mechanical energy. If it is stored in springs, you will have very little movement to cause it to trip and the firearm to discharge. Essentially it will be like a new Sig P320 that goes off when smacked. Extremely limited engagement causes severe safety issues. The lack of mechanical energy from pressing a button also will cause issues in allowing the reliable function of the firing mechanism.

The easiest way to demonstrate this is a solenoid on the trigger of a paintball marker, even though the system requires a electrical system to ensure function. The amount of movement with the solenoid is so minute that it would be impossible to create a safely functioning firearm with that little movement to fire it. But when you look at the other side of it with autococker paintball markers, they do not use an electrical system, nor do they utilize the solenoid system to discharge the marker. They use a standard trigger, with some modifications that we won't get into here so we don't muddy the waters, but by and large autocockers operate the same way a normal firearm fires. Mechanical energy causes the firing system to operate.

The physics of using a button to discharge a firearm or even a paintball marker, require the use of an electrical system of some sort, in order to ensure reliable function and safety. That is the inescapable truth.

A single set or double set trigger require very little movement to cause them to discharge the firearm that is the reason for using them so the minimal movement will be less likely to disrupt the sight picture. The amount of mechanical energy available with the push of a button is determined by how hard the button is pushed and the amount of travel travel the button requires.

Pinecone · Dec 25, 2018

But you could make the button light to press, but with longer travel, that actuates another part with the extra force required to trip the sear.

But still, WHY?

lazarus · Dec 25, 2018

ToolAA said:
I think there is some sort of ammo that has an insulated electrode where the primer is normally located. It’s a large caliber used in some belt fed mini gun. I’ve seen it but cant recall where.

In general, I think it comes down to reliability. Surely there are dozens of ways to make something go bang but in the heat of battle you want the absolutely fewest moving parts and the most robust components. Buttons, batteries and circuits are just more components that can fail at the wrong time.

Not exactly this, but Plasma Enhanced Ignition is something in development for future weapons. Basically you send an extremely high current pulse through a wire which turns it in to a plasma igniting the propellant much more evenly and rapidly.

Downside very high pressures. Upside, basically complete propellant ignition for better utilization of the propellant. End result, much higher muzzle velocities and energy fornthr same propellant charge.

Basically Russia has been looking at 140mm guns to get the kind of performance they need against new armor technologies. The US is investigating PEI to boost 120mm guns in to 140mm territory.

To the OP, a downside to a button is it can be less tactile than a trigger and also potentially easier to be pressed by accident. Can be, not is.

Also in terms of a purely mechanical firearm, it is really hard to create a hammer or striker lock actuated by a button rather than a trigger. You’ve got no mechanical advantage to a button where as you do with a trigger. So you’d need significantly more force to release the sear utilizing a button. If you had similar levels of force, the sear would be engaged so lightly bumping the weapon would be likely to release the hammer/striker.

There are some mechanical firearms that use paddles, mostly (all?) machineguns with tripod mounts. Example MG08, Vickers and in general Maxim designs. Those are all mechanical, but not really button actuated.

lazarus · Dec 25, 2018

Pinecone said:
But you could make the button light to press, but with longer travel, that actuates another part with the extra force required to trip the sear.

But still, WHY?

Yeah you’d need to use something to multiply the force. Otherwise the force in the sear would still be light, even if the engagement surface was long (allowing lots of button movement), which still wouldn’t be entirely safe.

If you look at a typical FCG where the pivots are and your finger placement you are multiplying the force of your trigger finger press by several times. What is a 2.5# trigger pull ends up being maybe 10-20#s at the sear.

A 1# sneeze at it and it fires trigger would be a bit excessive 4-8# button...but would still have the inherent dangers of that FCG locked up by very light pressure.

A 7# milspec trigger group would be a massive 30 odd pounds for a button.

lazarus · Dec 25, 2018

Pinecone said:
Harder to do when you are holding the firearm. With an aircraft stick, you are not holding it up.

Also a downward press shifts the point of the aim of the firearm more than a backward press does which mostly acts along the axis of the bore. The further a trigger is from the axis of the bore and the heavier the trigger pull is, the more likely it is to pull it off your intended point of aim when you pull the trigger. A downward force would make that significantly worse.

Really when it comes to a firearm, the general location of a trigger is about as good as it gets and a good trigger is about as good of an interface as you can get unless you have significant disabilities. Sure, if you have an electrically fired weapon a trigger may not be the best. A dual set button might be the way to go (think most digital cameras), but the positioning is still probably going to be about as good as it gets for human ergonomics.

LeadSled1 · Dec 25, 2018

If you used a button set up at 90 degrees from the FCG it would work and not need a light sear spring. You would only have the friction of the stop pin that is driven by the button across the sear.

Blacksmith101 · Dec 25, 2018

Pinecone said:
But you could make the button light to press, but with longer travel, that actuates another part with the extra force required to trip the sear.

But still, WHY?

For people who had their trigger finger shot off. :innocent0

DaemonAssassin · Dec 25, 2018

Blacksmith101 said:
For people who had their trigger finger shot off.

Gunny Sgt. Beckett approves.

zoostation · Dec 25, 2018

DaemonAssassin · Dec 25, 2018

zoostation said:
.

There is a electrical system for the motor and the firing system....

Pinecone · Dec 26, 2018

Blacksmith101 said:
For people who had their trigger finger shot off.

Ever heard of John Kruger?

He is an eight-time U.S. Open champion, the first inductee into his sport’s Hall of Fame, a 23-time All-American, which is even more than Johnny Manziel. He has won seven gold medals doing what he does, which is seven more than the U.S. speed skaters won in Russia doing what they do.

When the Tiger Woods of the shotgun world reached out to shake my hand, he reached with his left hand, because he has only one finger and a couple of stubs on his right hand.

That mangled hand is the one he shoots with.

At first, Kruger tried to learn to shoot with his left hand. Birdshot started flying all over the place, and that’s never a good thing in the shotgun sports. Then he tried to use his pinkie finger, the only finger left on his right hand. That worked much better.

He got this glove and attached a piece of Velcro to it, and he attached another piece of Velcro to the stock of his shotgun. Birdshot starting hitting clay targets again.

https://www.reviewjournal.com/sport...nown-as-the-tiger-woods-of-the-shotgun-world/

I have seen him shoot. An AMAZING shot.

Doco Overboard · Dec 28, 2018

Ralph G.Parker developed a thumb trigger for firing bolt action rifles.
The rifles could be fired with the device fitted to m1917 and m1903 rifles. The device was awarded a patent #1,202,416 on October 24, 1916 according to Brophy's book.

Accordingly,an example of a rifle built on a 1917 with the device can be seen in the SA museum collection and the other belongs to the NYC police department collection relative to the text.

An image of the device is not available however the description provides some insight into the design. It is based off an alternative cocking piece, twin milled slots into which the trigger bow slides,modified guard/magazine, a recessed area for the button and guide post slot that interacts with the other fcg parts with modifications done to the grip or small of the stock to accommodate the users fingers and thumb.

Sounds like a complicated affair to me with a picture worth a thousand words. The inventor's patent drawings were presented to the ordinance board initially built on a Mauser rifle and obviously didn't go far more than likely due to other pre war manufacturing considerations during the time period.

Blacksmith101 · Dec 28, 2018

Doco Overboard said:
Ralph G.Parker developed a thumb trigger for firing bolt action rifles.
The rifles could be fired with the device fitted to m1917 and m1903 rifles. The device was awarded a patent #1,202,416 on October 24, 1916 according to Brophy's book.

Accordingly,an example of a rifle built on a 1917 with the device can be seen in the SA museum collection and the other belongs to the NYC police department collection relative to the text.

An image of the device is not available however the description provides some insight into the design. It is based off an alternative cocking piece, twin milled slots into which the trigger bow slides,modified guard/magazine, a recessed area for the button and guide post slot that interacts with the other fcg parts with modifications done to the grip or small of the stock to accommodate the users fingers and thumb.

Sounds like a complicated affair to me with a picture worth a thousand words. The inventor's patent drawings were presented to the ordinance board initially built on a Mauser rifle and obviously didn't go far more than likely due to other pre war manufacturing considerations during the time period.

Here is a link to a PDF of the patent including drawings and description:
https://patentimages.storage.googleapis.com/16/53/c3/3d280822a747df/US1202416.pdf

Link to Google Patents entry:
https://patents.google.com/patent/US1202416A/en?oq=patent+#1,202,416+on+October+24,+1916

Looks like a thumb button to me.

Doco Overboard · Dec 28, 2018

What I cant tell from the drawings is how the lever "J" supplants the rear guard screw on a Mauser action. I guess that is where the socket type grip comes into play or the lever straddles the guard screw.
The lever reminds me of the cartridge guide on a Madsen and also reminds me of a mk1 sear and pawl arrangement.
Thanks for posting the drawings.

ras_oscar · Jan 4, 2019

ToolAA said:
I think there is some sort of ammo that has an insulated electrode where the primer is normally located. It’s a large caliber used in some belt fed mini gun. I’ve seen it but cant recall where.

In general, I think it comes down to reliability. Surely there are dozens of ways to make something go bang but in the heat of battle you want the absolutely fewest moving parts and the most robust components. Buttons, batteries and circuits are just more components that can fail at the wrong time.

and would be subject to failure in he event of an EMP.

Blacksmith101 · Jan 5, 2019

ras_oscar said:
and would be subject to failure in he event of an EMP.

Buttons can be mechanical in operation instead of electrical. Ever push a button to activate a gun safety?

yakfish · Jan 6, 2019

I wanna make a machine gun that uses a biometric trigger that only works for me.

If I ever get busted for having a unregistered MG, they’ll give it to ATF to test, and they won’t be able to get it to fire a single round, LOLz

Hell, it’s not even a gun at all if it can’t fire a shot!!!

yakfish · Jan 6, 2019

ras_oscar said:
and would be subject to failure in he event of an EMP.

In the event of an EMP, there’ll be plenty of actual traditional machine guns just laying all over the place.

Just pick it up and wipe it off.

DaemonAssassin · Jan 7, 2019

yakfish said:
I wanna make a machine gun that uses a biometric trigger that only works for me.

If I ever get busted for having a unregistered MG, they’ll give it to ATF to test, and they won’t be able to get it to fire a single round, LOLz

Hell, it’s not even a gun at all if it can’t fire a shot!!!

Biometric data is not protected under the 4th and 5th Amendments. A pass code/password/swipe code/PIN code is protected under the 4th and 5th Amendments. :innocent0

Button Instead Of Trigger

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