What am I doing wrong

frogman68 · Oct 17, 2014

Been going over the first batch of 300 blackout I made and shot

just can't see it

All were Hornady 150 grain using IMR 4227 will list each grain used . No changes to the bullet setting die but each group had a different COAL . Looking at it even if the casing were different lengths the only thing that should change is the depth the bullet sits in the case. To eliminate the case I found 5 exactly the same 1.634 , measured them multiple times to be sure , measured the bullets to be sure they are the same. I unscrewed the bullet setting part , set the die to touch plus a quarter turn . I did a bunch of cycles then took a piece of factory ammo and measured it 2.084 so I put that in the press brought it up then screwed the bullet setting part down till it hit then released the ram checked the factory ammo still 2.084. Next I took one of the five and put a bullet in it then measured it . My thinking is it should be a little longer than the factory but this was just a test. Check this dummy round 2.080 yes only .004 different but why wasn't either exact or longer I didn't put the bullet setting part tight just snug ? Thinking I will test another 2.077 I quit . Trying to think of why and cannot see it. Why would it change if the die is secured ? Last weeks numbers were more severe

16 grains 2.115 coal
16.1 grains 2.120 coal
16.2 grains 2.140 coal
16.3 grains 2.138 coal
16.4 grains 2.138 coal
16.5 grains 2.125 coal

Or am i making something out of nothing ?

BradMacc82 · Oct 17, 2014

Bullets have variances as well.

If your casings were all trimmed to the EXACT same length, and the seating die was secured and untouched in the press, and your motion on the ram was consistent - the only other variable that comes to mind is variation in the bullets themselves.

Let me guess, measuring COL from tip to tip (case-head to bullet-tip)??

BradMacc82 · Oct 17, 2014

Your seating die should be seating off the ogive of the bullet.

You can have inconsistent COL's if your measuring tip-to-tip, but if you measure those same rounds off the ogive of the bullet itself, there's likely little variation in lengths.

frogman68 · Oct 18, 2014

BradMacc82 said:
Bullets have variances as well.

If your casings were all trimmed to the EXACT same length, and the seating die was secured and untouched in the press, and your motion on the ram was consistent - the only other variable that comes to mind is variation in the bullets themselves.

Let me guess, measuring COL from tip to tip (case-head to bullet-tip)??

BradMacc82 said:
Your seating die should be seating off the ogive of the bullet.

You can have inconsistent COL's if your measuring tip-to-tip, but if you measure those same rounds off the ogive of the bullet itself, there's likely little variation in lengths.

Yes measuring tip to head . The bullets were the same but will pull them to be sure. Are you saying the variance is in the diameter of the bullet at the tip , so when it goes into the die it will sit higher or lower which is causing the deviation ? As these are plinking and if need be home defense rounds not to worry since I am way below max coal ?

Sorry for all the stupid questions just want to be sure that I won't damage anything and more importantly injure someone

Thanks

BigDaddy · Oct 18, 2014

frogman68 said:
Are you saying the variance is in the diameter of the bullet at the tip , so when it goes into the die it will sit higher or lower which is causing the deviation ?

That's what they are saying. If you want consistency you need a bullet comparator like this, where the inserts fit on the ogive of different caliber bullets.
http://www.midwayusa.com/product/231904/hornady-lock-n-load-bullet-comparator-basic-set-with-6-inserts?cm_vc=ProductFinding

OAL is important for magazine function but it doesn't tell you where the ogive of the bullet is to the start of the lands. The bench resters want to know that, because they get the best accuracy close to the lands or maybe even pressed into the lands. In the lands is what you don't want to do because that is where bad pressure things happen with max loads and there are reliability problems when dirt happens.

There is another gauge for that too, http://www.midwayusa.com/product/479963/hornady-lock-n-load-overall-length-gage-automatic-lever-action?cm_vc=ProductFinding and you need a special case for that.

Not to hijack your thread, but what do you AR guys do about optimizing loads based on a OAL measured off the ogive?

frogman68 · Oct 19, 2014

Thanks mixed up 40 more (tip don't set up your reloading bench in the bedroom and start at 5am on a Sunday , wife didn't like it) . Spent nearly an hour setting the bullet die. Wanted 2.080 after it was set I tested the longest and shortest case (only .006 difference) . Measured the 20 as it went into the mag so I can see if any jam , ftf etc . Out of the 20 my variance was between +.001 to +.015 from my target and .014 between the the smallest and largest .

Next I tried this recipe
http://www.mdshooters.com/showpost.php?p=3323440&postcount=24
Spent another hour setting the die and again none came out variance from target +.031 to +.045 the odd number is .014 difference between the largest and smallest . the lengths are all written down in their position in the mag will see if it makes a difference

noylj · Oct 19, 2014

If you want consistency, which you have anyway unless your seating die or stem is loose, is to measure COL at the SAME datum as your seating stem contacts the bullet.
Personally, all this worry about COL is a bit over done.

Sticky · Oct 19, 2014

What type of bullets were they? There are a lot of variants and bullet length can be one with some types. Polymer tipped bullets seem to be the most consistent for me, HP's are probably the least. Measure a handful of bullets that you were loading and see how the oal compares to your loaded ammo results..
Measuring to the ogive will save you a lot of headaches, as this is how many dies seat the bullet and it is the most consistent point to measure to on a bullet's profile..

frogman68 · Oct 19, 2014

These are Hornady's 150 grain #3031

Sticky · Oct 19, 2014

Soft points will vary a bit too.. measure some bullet oal's and see what they look like.

I also set most of my dies up to have contact plus a half turn. You want the press to 'cam over' as you reach the bottom of the stroke. This is noticeable, even if dry cycling the press. You should feel that extra bump needed to reach full down as the press cams over.

What dies are you using?

You shot some of them, yes? How did they shoot?

Sticky · Oct 19, 2014

BigDaddy said:
Not to hijack your thread, but what do you AR guys do about optimizing loads based on a OAL measured off the ogive?

Nothing.. LOL

Most of the time with an AR, you are dealing with the max length that the mags can handle and this is nothing like seating to or near the lands as with a bolt action rifle.

Setup the load at about the max oal and measure to the ogive, then use this average measurement of several rounds to establish the LTO (length to ogive) and load em up! I don't work with oal as a variable with AR loads, only with my bolt rifles.

frogman68 · Oct 19, 2014

Sticky said:
Soft points will vary a bit too.. measure some bullet oal's and see what they look like.

I also set most of my dies up to have contact plus a half turn. You want the press to 'cam over' as you reach the bottom of the stroke. This is noticeable, even if dry cycling the press. You should feel that extra bump needed to reach full down as the press cams over.

What dies are you using?

You shot some of them, yes? How did they shoot?

using Lee dies , on a Lee turret press . This batch I didn't shoot too windy today

. The first batch I did but a lot of FTF , FTE's . Was thinking that the distance from the bullet to the powder was to great . The first batch (of today's run) I used the coal of round of factory ammo that was 147 gr and that shot great

Winterborn · Oct 23, 2014

BradMacc82 said:
Your seating die should be seating off the ogive of the bullet.

You can have inconsistent COL's if your measuring tip-to-tip, but if you measure those same rounds off the ogive of the bullet itself, there's likely little variation in lengths.

Brad answered your question? here already. The bullet seating stem contacts the ogive of the bullet, NOT the tip.

Unless you have every single case trimmed EXACTLY the same, you will likely see slightly different COALs throughout your batch.

It is normal and nothing to worry about, unless you are a benchrest shooter and are weighing, measuring, etc... each and every part of your cartridge for absolute consistency. Plinking ammo doesn't merit this level of focus, imho.

Winterborn · Oct 23, 2014

frogman68 said:
using Lee dies , on a Lee turret press . This batch I didn't shoot too windy today . The first batch I did but a lot of FTF , FTE's . Was thinking that the distance from the bullet to the powder was to great . The first batch (of today's run) I used the coal of round of factory ammo that was 147 gr and that shot great

Is that Fail to Feed, or Fail to Fire?

What were your loads? You said you were using IMR 4227, which is a decent powder for blackout supers. Trying to go light on 300 BO supers doesn't work very well in my experience with the round, the gun likes more gas. What type of gas system do you have? How long a barrel?

FTFeed/FTE can be due to ammo inconsistencies, I find that using longer bullets and seating them as close to max (2.26" for a 300 BO) as possible tends to eliminate my feed issues.

Winterborn · Oct 23, 2014

BigDaddy said:
Not to hijack your thread, but what do you AR guys do about optimizing loads based on a OAL measured off the ogive?

I find that ammo feeds better in my ARs if it is seated as close to mag length (2.26") as possible. As long as you have cases trimmed to spec, this sets the bullet at the correct spot in the chamber assuming your headspacing is correct.

But....I'm not a benchrest shooter. I'll say that my method in my 300 BO 16" carbine will put five rounds touching each other at 100yds.....proved it today, actually

YMMV - part of the fun of reloading is figuring our what your particular rifle likes.

frogman68 · Oct 23, 2014

Winterborn said:
Is that Fail to Feed, or Fail to Fire?

What were your loads? You said you were using IMR 4227, which is a decent powder for blackout supers. Trying to go light on 300 BO supers doesn't work very well in my experience with the round, the gun likes more gas. What type of gas system do you have? How long a barrel?

FTFeed/FTE can be due to ammo inconsistencies, I find that using longer bullets and seating them as close to max (2.26" for a 300 BO) as possible tends to eliminate my feed issues.

Not sure of the gas tube size but it's an 8 1/4 in barrel

Factory ammo had no issues . The FTF were feeds seems like the bolt didn't come all the way forward , the fail to ejects seemed that the spent shell didn't come out since the bolt didn't go far enough back then the bolt came forward causing another fail to feed

IndispensableDestiny · Oct 26, 2014

Winterborn said:
Unless you have every single case trimmed EXACTLY the same, you will likely see slightly different COALs throughout your batch.

Trim length has nothing to do with the COAL obtained when seating bullets.

Most like the variance the OP is experiencing is from the length of the bullets themselves. Softpoints are like that. Others have mentioned using a bullet comparator, which is what I go by, but record both.

IndispensableDestiny · Oct 26, 2014

Sticky said:
I also set most of my dies up to have contact plus a half turn. You want the press to 'cam over' as you reach the bottom of the stroke.

There is no reason to cam over the press when seating bullets. The only reason to cam over is if the press, shell holder, and die combo does not set the shoulder back far enough without it, or does so inconsistently. Likewise, there is no reason to cam over when resizing straight wall brass.

What am I doing wrong

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