Gun trusts and regulated firearms

OLM-Medic · Feb 26, 2020

I understand how they work for NFA items. Apparently you can transfer non-NFA items into them as well.

My question is for states like Maryland that have regulated firearms that must be transferred through FFL/MSP, how do you get these firearms into your trust?

Jkratz · Feb 26, 2020

A couple of friends and I have trusts through arsenal attorneys- first friend got his around 2010 last friend around 2018- arsenal attorneys take is the state of Maryland does not allow non NFA firearms to be placed into a trust- they did mention certain states do allow however

Thanks

OLM-Medic · Feb 26, 2020

Jkratz said:
A couple of friends and I have trusts through arsenal attorneys- first friend got his around 2010 last friend around 2018- arsenal attorneys take is the state of Maryland does not allow non NFA firearms to be placed into a trust- they did mention certain states do allow however

Thanks

I'll have to look into this.

I suppose that once I move out of this state again next year none of this will apply to me anyway.

lazarus · Feb 26, 2020

You don’t need to place them in a trust. Just put them in your will. Next of kin is not legally barred from being in possession of those regulated firearms. So if there is someone specific who is not your legal next of kin who you want to have them, put it in your will as that makes that person your legal inheritor of that item.

If cautious, make sure you file your will with the county registrar of wills and also make sure either the person who is willed the firearm had a copy of your will, or is at least instructed as to where a copy is kept as well as insuring that the executor of your will knows about this bequest (and that the inheritor is also aware of who the executor is).

If the normal next of kin (spouse or children, or your nephew if that’s your only living kin etc.) also happens to be who you want to have the regulated firearms AND they are also the executor, then you don’t really need to put it in your will and do all that.

But doesn’t hurt for them to be aware you want them to take possession when you pass as well as making sure it’s in writing in case someone get grabby hands “well grand uncle always said how much he wanted me to have his old 1911”

4g64loser · Feb 26, 2020

When I spoke with Matt Bergstrom (Arsenal Attorneys) he stated that MD would not allow handguns or other "regulated weapons" to be placed into the trust. Long guns of the non regulated type, as there is no MD paperwork, could theoretically be done. He also said that a simple assignment sheet could easily assign all your mags and another could assign all your ammo.

As for the will avenue, as Lazarus brings up, the reason most prefer a trust as their legal instrument is that a will is filed and, in most cases, is public record. Even in localities where the records are not public, it is often not well secured. A trust can bypass the probate process and keep the records of who inherited what valuable NFA (or non NFA) weapons private.

I am not a lawyer and I don't have any dog in the OP's fight but I always suggest that anyone with an estate disposal question consult a competent attorney. If you have firearms of significant value, either individually or as a total collection, it might benefit your heirs to construct a legal instrument that maximizes their privacy. We have lawyers here as members and there are many others who specialize in estate planning. Do your research. Obtain legal assistance. Make informed choices.

lazarus · Feb 26, 2020

4g64loser said:
When I spoke with Matt Bergstrom (Arsenal Attorneys) he stated that MD would not allow handguns or other "regulated weapons" to be placed into the trust. Long guns of the non regulated type, as there is no MD paperwork, could theoretically be done. He also said that a simple assignment sheet could easily assign all your mags and another could assign all your ammo.

As for the will avenue, as Lazarus brings up, the reason most prefer a trust as their legal instrument is that a will is filed and, in most cases, is public record. Even in localities where the records are not public, it is often not well secured. A trust can bypass the probate process and keep the records of who inherited what valuable NFA (or non NFA) weapons private.

I am not a lawyer and I don't have any dog in the OP's fight but I always suggest that anyone with an estate disposal question consult a competent attorney. If you have firearms of significant value, either individually or as a total collection, it might benefit your heirs to construct a legal instrument that maximizes their privacy. We have lawyers here as members and there are many others who specialize in estate planning. Do your research. Obtain legal assistance. Make informed choices.

Good point on filed wills being public. You could always go with not filing it, but having several copies with people you trust including the executor. Though that’ll take longer for somethings to be resolved after your death.

But as to the legal advise. Do that. My advice is just what I am aware of with probate law having had drawn one up a few years ago. I am by no means an expert.

4g64loser · Feb 26, 2020

Lazarus,

I wasn't in any way trying to discredit the avenue you suggest, and I apologize if that is how it came across.

I know several people who have significant NFA collections and the subject has been discussed quite a bit over the years. The common complaint of public filing of your NFA collection list can be circumvented in most states with the trust route. There are multiple trust options, ranging from the "perpetual" trust instruments to a simpler trust intended to transfer on death and then dissolve.

I claim no expert status but, when I began exploring the options available, I talked to several collectors and two manufacturer/dealers. Two conversations with different attorneys followed. I can say that every conversation yielded some knowledge and the money spent with attorneys was worth every penny in value for the the advice received.

Sadly, not all people are good and lowering exposure is generally a sound policy. The fewer people that have access to a detailed catalog of your (presumably valuable) firearms, the better.

I must apologize to OP for the thread drift. I asked a friend for an informal opinion on a way to migrate "regulated firearms" into a trust. while there is no instrument for those in MD, he suggested that someone moving INTO MD (or returning to MD) might add such items to the schedule of property or with assignment sheets while resident in another state that permits such things. The sticky bit might be the transfer from the trust to a presumed heir in MD upon the trustee's demise/beneficiary's reaching criteria age. MDSP would likely refuse to process a 77R from a trust to a beneficiary (this last part is strictly my opinion and one should take it as such).

OLM-Medic · Feb 26, 2020

lazarus said:
You don’t need to place them in a trust. Just put them in your will. Next of kin is not legally barred from being in possession of those regulated firearms. So if there is someone specific who is not your legal next of kin who you want to have them, put it in your will as that makes that person your legal inheritor of that item.

If cautious, make sure you file your will with the county registrar of wills and also make sure either the person who is willed the firearm had a copy of your will, or is at least instructed as to where a copy is kept as well as insuring that the executor of your will knows about this bequest (and that the inheritor is also aware of who the executor is).

If the normal next of kin (spouse or children, or your nephew if that’s your only living kin etc.) also happens to be who you want to have the regulated firearms AND they are also the executor, then you don’t really need to put it in your will and do all that.

But doesn’t hurt for them to be aware you want them to take possession when you pass as well as making sure it’s in writing in case someone get grabby hands “well grand uncle always said how much he wanted me to have his old 1911”

I like the fact that the trust owns the firearms and a friend could hold onto them in the unlikely event that I am incapacitated and unable to own firearms for whatever reason. I already have an NFA trust, so I figured I may as well use it.

4g64loser said:
When I spoke with Matt Bergstrom (Arsenal Attorneys) he stated that MD would not allow handguns or other "regulated weapons" to be placed into the trust. Long guns of the non regulated type, as there is no MD paperwork, could theoretically be done. He also said that a simple assignment sheet could easily assign all your mags and another could assign all your ammo.

As for the will avenue, as Lazarus brings up, the reason most prefer a trust as their legal instrument is that a will is filed and, in most cases, is public record. Even in localities where the records are not public, it is often not well secured. A trust can bypass the probate process and keep the records of who inherited what valuable NFA (or non NFA) weapons private.

I am not a lawyer and I don't have any dog in the OP's fight but I always suggest that anyone with an estate disposal question consult a competent attorney. If you have firearms of significant value, either individually or as a total collection, it might benefit your heirs to construct a legal instrument that maximizes their privacy. We have lawyers here as members and there are many others who specialize in estate planning. Do your research. Obtain legal assistance. Make informed choices.

I suppose once I move back to PA in the future I can just place them all in my trust since those transfer laws won't apply.

It seems like the real problem I need to look into would be if people in Maryland could inherit/use them since they would have to be transferred.

lazarus · Feb 26, 2020

No worries, I didn’t feel like you were. You pointed out something I hadn’t really considered on wills being public. I don’t think I’d personally let
That stop me if my will was something like “to my eldest son I leave all of my firearms” or something like that. Or even naming a specific firearm if it wasn’t something really valuable. If someone is trolling public wills for targets,I am unlikely to
Stand out.

A large named collection of guns or NFA items, no way I’d want that public ally accessible.

outrider58 · Feb 27, 2020

OLM-Medic said:
I like the fact that the trust owns the firearms and a friend could hold onto them in the unlikely event that I am incapacitated and unable to own firearms for whatever reason. I already have an NFA trust, so I figured I may as well use it.

I suppose once I move back to PA in the future I can just place them all in my trust since those transfer laws won't apply.

It seems like the real problem I need to look into would be if people in Maryland could inherit/use them since they would have to be transferred.

To clarify, the only people who can possess the items in an NFA trust are the trustees of said trust. Anyone outside of that trust, found with any item from that trust without a trustee in accompaniment, will be considered a prohibited person and subject to all laws regarding illegal possession of said item.
So to legally 'transfer' your trust items to another, they must first be a trustee. Photographs and fingerprints.

IANAL

OLM-Medic · Feb 27, 2020

outrider58 said:
To clarify, the only people who can possess the items in an NFA trust are the trustees of said trust. Anyone outside of that trust, found with any item from that trust without a trustee in accompaniment, will be considered a prohibited person and subject to all laws regarding illegal possession of said item.
So to legally 'transfer' your trust items to another, they must first be a trustee. Photographs and fingerprints.

IANAL

Yep.

My questions are about how non-NFA firearms are handled in Maryland since it has a HQL and regulated transfers.

lazarus · Feb 27, 2020

outrider58 said:
To clarify, the only people who can possess the items in an NFA trust are the trustees of said trust. Anyone outside of that trust, found with any item from that trust without a trustee in accompaniment, will be considered a prohibited person and subject to all laws regarding illegal possession of said item.
So to legally 'transfer' your trust items to another, they must first be a trustee. Photographs and fingerprints.

IANAL

Photographs and fingerprints are only required when you submit the trust to the ATF. If you add someone later, that is not needed. Now if you add an NFA item to the trust, either they need to be removed from the trust, or fingerprints and photographs to the ATF.

That’s why single item trusts can be advantageous.

Also I think technically if none of the members of a trust are alive, then the next of kin of a trustee could legally possess the NFA item until such time as it is transfer to them by contacting the ATF. Wouldn’t be any different than an individual instead of a trust and they died. Next of kin can possess it until they resolve things with the ATF. The ATF has gone on record saying they don’t go after people if they “don’t know” and are trying to figure things out. For example you find grandad’s machine pistol in the attic after he dies and call the ATF because you aren’t sure if it is registered because you can’t find a tax stamp. An agent will come, look it over, do a records search and either confiscate it and “thank you very much” if it wasn’t legally registered, or give you a copy of the tax stamp and transfer it in to your name if you so wish.

But always good to keep trusts up to date and try to make sure you have multiple people on there if you can. For example, if your kids aren’t old enough, if you CAN, don’t just put your spouse on there. Might want to put your brother, or your Dad or a really close friend or something on there. So if you and your wife die in a tragic car wreck, there is still a living trustee.

OLM-Medic · Feb 27, 2020

lazarus said:
Photographs and fingerprints are only required when you submit the trust to the ATF. If you add someone later, that is not needed. Now if you add an NFA item to the trust, either they need to be removed from the trust, or fingerprints and photographs to the ATF.

That’s why single item trusts can be advantageous.

Also I think technically if none of the members of a trust are alive, then the next of kin of a trustee could legally possess the NFA item until such time as it is transfer to them by contacting the ATF. Wouldn’t be any different than an individual instead of a trust and they died. Next of kin can possess it until they resolve things with the ATF. The ATF has gone on record saying they don’t go after people if they “don’t know” and are trying to figure things out. For example you find grandad’s machine pistol in the attic after he dies and call the ATF because you aren’t sure if it is registered because you can’t find a tax stamp. An agent will come, look it over, do a records search and either confiscate it and “thank you very much” if it wasn’t legally registered, or give you a copy of the tax stamp and transfer it in to your name if you so wish.

But always good to keep trusts up to date and try to make sure you have multiple people on there if you can. For example, if your kids aren’t old enough, if you CAN, don’t just put your spouse on there. Might want to put your brother, or your Dad or a really close friend or something on there. So if you and your wife die in a tragic car wreck, there is still a living trustee.

Some attorneys have said to just remove all trustees before you do a stamp, then reinstate them later.

I wonder about the wife thing if a trust could protect you in the event of a divorce or if they still would he able to take your stuff.

lazarus · Feb 27, 2020

OLM-Medic said:
Some attorneys have said to just remove all trustees before you do a stamp, then reinstate them later.

I wonder about the wife thing if a trust could protect you in the event of a divorce or if they still would he able to take your stuff.

If they are on the trust, they aren’t prohibited from possessing it and they are a trustee. So if they aren’t removed, it wouldn’t be theft if they, say, took it from the safe.

So yeah, in the event of a divorce, get them off the trust!

As for if they were not on the trust, it would depend on state law. I think generally what is in the trust is considered property of the trust for the benefit of the named person. So it would not be property or assets that would be considered marital property to be divided in a divorce. But a trust or divorce lawyer would know. I am just casing based on my little knowledge of the law.

outrider58 · Feb 28, 2020

OLM-Medic said:
Some attorneys have said to just remove all trustees before you do a stamp, then reinstate them later.

I wonder about the wife thing if a trust could protect you in the event of a divorce or if they still would he able to take your stuff.

That's the thing. Removing everyone from the trust, I would assume for the whole 'jail' period, leaves you very vulnerable for an extended period of time. Too vulnerable in my mind.

If your trust is a "Revocable Trust", than your wife or anyone else on your trust can be rendered prohibited from possession of any items of the trust without you being present.

lazarus · Feb 28, 2020

outrider58 said:
That's the thing. Removing everyone from the trust, I would assume for the whole 'jail' period, leaves you very vulnerable for an extended period of time. Too vulnerable in my mind.

If your trust is a "Revocable Trust", than your wife or anyone else on your trust can be rendered prohibited from possession of any items of the trust without you being present.

Vulnerable only in the sense that they can’t posses them at that time. If you died, your spouse/next of kin could still legally possess it.

Now for something like an electronic form 1, I’d have no issues about taking people off and
Then back on. They are off for a few weeks at most. I sometimes don’t even get to the range that often.

A form 4 right now...no way.

Maybe once form 4s go electronic it won’t be such a big deal.

OLM-Medic · Feb 29, 2020

lazarus said:
Vulnerable only in the sense that they can’t posses them at that time. If you died, your spouse/next of kin could still legally possess it.

Now for something like an electronic form 1, I’d have no issues about taking people off and
Then back on. They are off for a few weeks at most. I sometimes don’t even get to the range that often.

A form 4 right now...no way.

Maybe once form 4s go electronic it won’t be such a big deal.

Meh. Until they make Form 1's more complicated I probably will only day one more Form 4 in my life ever again.

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