R&R Arrested at March On NRA

swinokur · Aug 21, 2018

Nnztg8r said:
What a clown!

I know what a troll looks like; we’ve collectively endured more than a few. You’re no troll sir. Not now. Not ever.

IMO, the problem with “troll” is the same problem with “racist”. Overuse and attempted universal application has sullied the word such that it loses both meaning and impact.

Couple things... The righteousness of the causes of 1A and 2A are undeniable. Moral and legal bedrock. Patriot Picket has done themselves and our community proud in their on site professional and “mostly” restrained demonstration in support of our rights. They have demonstrated, for lack of a better word, patriotism in an above and beyond manner. How they do what they do is up to them. That’s from their organizing to their demonstrations.

The how is what has rubbed some folks the wrong way. Again, IMO, they have amended their organizing from what I can see to move away from what I’ll call “strong arming” and or “guilt tripping” folks to join them...or to support them. This is the intersection where folks who have been uncomfortable with previous perceived practice get sand in their craw. I will say that it’s human nature to observe what I’ll call “zealotry” with at least discomfort. Personally, I believe there’s only a couple other key moral purposes that merit true zealotry...God, family and country. Innate human rights are worth fighting and perhaps even dying over.

I’m gonna go out on a limb here (I don’t FB for a reason...) and guess y’all are assigning this particular use of “troll” to ZzzzMan. He’s as entitled to his opinion as any of you or indeed, any of us. If you don’t like it or don’t agree, so be it. I’m guessing he has his reasons for disagreement. Again, just a guess but if somebody’s fur was rubbed the wrong way regarding how PP chose to recruit, organize and motivate, then it’s no surprise that same someone might be less than comfortable with PP fundraising efforts. The righteousness of the cause can never supplant the righteousness of the individual to disagree with or doubt the methodology.

Online communities are full of all kinds of causes. Our MDS community has a preponderance of good shit folks. Our core principles are mostly about appreciating, protecting, defending and understanding our human and Constitutional rights. We will always share that. These are very passionate topics. That we employ passion when we discuss them is no surprise. It’s the control of that passion and our ability to comport ourselves with a wee bit of class or even dignity where we occasionally fall short.

Disagreeing with someone is de rigeur in life and on line. On line flat out sucks as a medium for dialog. It remains mostly monologue and as such, is lousy for any type of effective discourse.

We can disagree without being disagreeable. We are either a community or not. Polarizing about the how’s of our precious passionate issues is neither smart nor effective. Value input and move forward. Spending energy with passive aggressive name calling...is trolling unto itself.

We can do better.

An aside: given Jeff’s health, I trust there’s some sort of “trust” set up (eg, legal defense fund) wherein the funds are safe in the event he cannot administer them himself. Confirmation of that will draw my modest contribution into the kitty.

A thoughtful and rational post. I don’t agree with all your points but you present your position in a polite, cohesive and reasoned manner

Thanks.

Rack&Roll · Aug 21, 2018

Cypherpunk, acting as intermediary for the R&R Legal Defense Fund, retrieved 21 envelopes from his P.O. box on August 11 and handed them to me the following day when he joined the Patriot Picket “Welcome Wagon” for MD AG Brian Frosh in Bethesda.

In the top picture, you can count the 21 envelopes, followed by a picture of the bank tally for 20 deposits and one rejected check because it was not signed, LOL.

(Based on advice, I will re-attempt deposit of this check tomorrow by writing “deposit guaranteed by issuer” on the signature line.)

Tonight, Cypherpunk and I will jointly open the next batch of envelopes, record them, deposit them and post the updated donor list so folks can confirm their donations are officially part of the fund.

As of this moment we have 21 check/money order donors and 3 cash donors (Cypherpunk, Stoveman, and me, $400) for a total of 24 donations.

Thank you everyone for putting the “trust” in this “trust fund”!

The new tally will go up when I get a new bank receipt tomorrow to present here.

Not_an_outlaw · Aug 21, 2018

There are instances where civil rights such as free speech are observed. It's termed, I believe, the company town case. Also, there are cases currently in the pipeline that may affect private means like Facebook. One example given by a TV pundit was that what if united airlines prohibited anyone from flying on their aircraft that had a Wall Street Journal. Sounds kind of stupid, but not illegal. It's kind of like the banks ditching gun related activities. Recently Well Fargo dropped a political candidate due to accepting funds from pro marijuana folks. This is not specifically on point, but similar.

fidelity · Aug 21, 2018

Nnztg8r said:
What a clown!

I know what a troll looks like; we’ve collectively endured more than a few. You’re no troll sir. Not now. Not ever.

IMO, the problem with “troll” is the same problem with “racist”. Overuse and attempted universal application has sullied the word such that it loses both meaning and impact.

Couple things... The righteousness of the causes of 1A and 2A are undeniable. Moral and legal bedrock. Patriot Picket has done themselves and our community proud in their on site professional and “mostly” restrained demonstration in support of our rights. They have demonstrated, for lack of a better word, patriotism in an above and beyond manner. How they do what they do is up to them. That’s from their organizing to their demonstrations.

The how is what has rubbed some folks the wrong way. Again, IMO, they have amended their organizing from what I can see to move away from what I’ll call “strong arming” and or “guilt tripping” folks to join them...or to support them. This is the intersection where folks who have been uncomfortable with previous perceived practice get sand in their craw. I will say that it’s human nature to observe what I’ll call “zealotry” with at least discomfort. Personally, I believe there’s only a couple other key moral purposes that merit true zealotry...God, family and country. Innate human rights are worth fighting and perhaps even dying over.

I’m gonna go out on a limb here (I don’t FB for a reason...) and guess y’all are assigning this particular use of “troll” to ZzzzMan or maybe even Blaster. Either are entitled to his opinion as any of you or indeed, any of us. If you don’t like it or don’t agree, so be it. I’m guessing they have their reasons for disagreement. Again, just a guess but if somebody’s fur was rubbed the wrong way regarding how PP chose to recruit, organize and motivate, then it’s no surprise that same someone might be less than comfortable with PP fundraising efforts. The righteousness of the cause can never supplant the righteousness of the individual to disagree with or doubt the methodology.

Online communities are full of all kinds of causes. Our MDS community has a preponderance of good shit folks. Our core principles are mostly about appreciating, protecting, defending and understanding our human and Constitutional rights. We will always share that. These are very passionate topics. That we employ passion when we discuss them is no surprise. It’s the control of that passion and our ability to comport ourselves with a wee bit of class or even dignity where we occasionally fall short.

Disagreeing with someone is de rigeur in life and on line. On line flat out sucks as a medium for dialog. It remains mostly monologue and as such, is lousy for any type of effective discourse.

We can disagree without being disagreeable. We are either a community or not. Polarizing about the how’s of our precious passionate issues is neither smart nor effective. Value input and move forward. Spending energy with passive aggressive name calling...is trolling unto itself.

We can do better.

An aside: given Jeff’s health, I trust there’s some sort of “trust” set up (eg, legal defense fund) wherein the funds are safe in the event he cannot administer them himself. Confirmation of that will draw my modest contribution into the kitty.

******I edited this after the fact to add Blaster to ZzzzzzMan.

Good post. Worth reading in its entirety.

I'm really bothered by the direction this thread took, and by people that I like that I quote below.

Stoveman said:
This thread was posted to the MDS Book of Faces. Some jackwagon doesn't get it.
...
Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

Stoveman said:
Good. Probably the victim of the ban hammer here who is banished to FB acting the fool.

How much of his own money will he provide?

How much does a good attorney cost in Fairfax, azzhole?

Why bring this here? It was on MDS FB. You know who the individual is and that he was active here. You've bought a firearm from him before, right? Did you think he wouldn't respond and thus out himself on the public part of the board?

Rack&Roll said:
So, "M--- ------", I will answer you here because you are an MDS member, but I am not a Facebook user.
...

You of course know him too. I remember happier times not long ago ...

https://www.mdshooters.com/showthread.php?p=5033102

Why use his name when he hadn't said anything in this thread?

He could have raised the same questions in this thread under his alias but didn't. Maybe he didn't want to derail it (or "troll" it). There are times when he might step over the line here and the mods take care of it. What I saw posted by him on FB didn't look particularly egregious but we may moderate things differently there (and I can understand why). However I'm puzzled why this was brought here, especially using his real name, as the outing is almost predictable then.

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Stoveman · Aug 21, 2018

To my fellow esteemed member fidelity -

You are assuming a lot. I've got a pretty good memory but I'm terrible with names, especially trying to keep screen names and real names together. I've sold Tasers to folks here, printed out invoices with their names and still couldn't pick it out of a list. I have purchased many things from various individuals over the years and certainly don't remember all of their names.

Why bring it here? Because I thought it was rude that a random person on FB would ask how much of his own money would he provide, and apparently so did who ever does the moderation on that page. I've contributed or been asked to contribute to many Gofundme pages and the like and not once did it ever cross my mind to ask that type of question.

Mightydog · Aug 21, 2018

How has this thread become so unglued? Started out as a donation thread to support not only brother Rack but others. Has exploded into personal innuendos, call outs and more. Maybe those with stones to throw should start another thread? Need to keep this on track with the goals in sight and not mud slinging. Please?

Mr. Ed · Aug 21, 2018

Stoveman said:
To my fellow esteemed member fidelity -

You are assuming a lot. I've got a pretty good memory but I'm terrible with names, especially trying to keep screen names and real names together. I've sold Tasers to folks here, printed out invoices with their names and still couldn't pick it out of a list. I have purchased many things from various individuals over the years and certainly don't remember all of their names.

Why bring it here? Because I thought it was rude that a random person on FB would ask how much of his own money would he provide, and apparently so did who ever does the moderation on that page. I've contributed or been asked to contribute to many Gofundme pages and the like and not once did it ever cross my mind to ask that type of question.

Now that we are completely derailed, I have to agree that I might have asked (or at least thought) the same question as MT posted on FB, but since I know, and have been proud to stand with R&R and Cypherpunk (and lots more PP and MDS folks), there's not a doubt in my mind that all the money will be used wisely and as advertised. So I am happy to be a contributor.

It's okay that we all don't subscribe to (or even understand) all of the tactics used in our ongoing efforts to combat the encroachment by the MGS on our rights, but questioning the integrity of the folks involved in this cause isn't warranted.

Let's move forward now, okay? :party29:

fidelity · Aug 21, 2018

Stoveman said:
To my fellow esteemed member fidelity -

You are assuming a lot. I've got a pretty good memory but I'm terrible with names, especially trying to keep screen names and real names together. I've sold Tasers to folks here, printed out invoices with their names and still couldn't pick it out of a list. I have purchased many things from various individuals over the years and certainly don't remember all of their names.

Why bring it here? Because I thought it was rude that a random person on FB would ask how much of his own money would he provide, and apparently so did who ever does the moderation on that page. I've contributed or been asked to contribute to many Gofundme pages and the like and not once did it ever cross my mind to ask that type of question.

I remember you telling me about this purchase from him, which is why I was puzzled that you were suggesting that you didn’t know him. Also, it’s Facebook. If you don’t remember names, I’m sure he had a profile pic or two. But I’ll take you at your word, because I would be surprised that you would refer to someone that you know to be an active member here in that manner and derail the discussion here. Personally, if I wasn’t sure, I would have blacked out the person’s name (if I even brought it here to this thread), because otherwise it is a call out that invites a response. Or just put up the comment about some “jackwagon” on FB without the screen cap with his name. I realize that you and others in the PP are comfortable with your names being out there, and put yourselves on the line by being public, but some folks that participate here want a measure of privacy, which is something that I hope we all respect.

(And I’m not referring to this person in specific wanting his privacy - whom you didn’t know when you posted - but as a general principle)

Mightydog · Aug 21, 2018

Another reason I don’t do the “Book of Faces”.

fidelity · Aug 21, 2018

Mightydog said:
Another reason I don’t do the “Book of Faces”.

(I actually have a last name account - unique last name and early FB participant - but log in once a year or two if some long lost friend is trying to reach me - and otherwise stay away due to privacy concerns and how politicized the medium is)

Stoveman · Aug 21, 2018

fidelity said:
I remember you telling me about this purchase from him, which is why I was puzzled that you were suggesting that you didn’t know him. Also, it’s Facebook. If you don’t remember names, I’m sure he had a profile pic or two. But I’ll take you at your word, because I would be surprised that you would refer to someone that you know to be an active member here in that manner and derail the discussion here. Personally, if I wasn’t sure, I would have blacked out the person’s name (if I even brought it here to this thread), because otherwise it is a call out that invites a response. Or just put up the comment about some “jackwagon” on FB without the screen cap with his name. I realize that you and others in the PP are comfortable with your names being out there, and put yourselves on the line by being public, but some folks that participate here want a measure of privacy, which is something that I hope we all respect.

(And I’m not referring to this person in specific wanting his privacy - whom you didn’t know when you posted - but as a general principle)

There are a group of people that I know both here on MDS and on FB; Montoya, Jaybeez, teratos, dblas, mxrider and a few more because we are in many of the same firearm related groups. As far as I know MT doesn't belong to any of those groups and I don't associate with him hardly at all out in the world and so that name didn't jump out at me as someone who is also a member here.

As I gave an example of upstream, FB can be the wild wild west at times and that post stood out to me as a complete opposite of the generosity of the good folks here at MDS.

Rack&Roll · Aug 21, 2018

Unfortunately, a sharp question and a pointed comment was put to me on a forum—FACEBOOK—where I am not a member.

The question was directed at ME, so it was mine to answer. I addressed the questioner by his FB name and and took no action to connect him to his screen name here.

I responded to the question and the “pointed” comment fully, and with enough detail that it did not require any answer or response. It was my answer to the person who questioned me, and to all who might be curious in the same manner as the person confronting me.

The person asking and commenting on FACEBOOK— recognizing that I was unable to answer there—could have
read my response and walked away, but chose to re-engage, and out himself.

His choice.

Sadly, this person challenging me is someone I have regarded as a buddy and someone who has a text channel open to me 24/7, but bypassed it.

Questioning me about my contribution to my own defense was legit. Happy to answer.

The FB comment that followed ignored pages and pages of explanations about taking on oppressive public policy, as individuals, and as a group.

Why those pages were not worth reading, or deemed incomplete, is beyond me.

I do know that the next time I go to Larry’s Pub and yell out “Is the beer COLD in this joint?” I will be welcomed—or marched to the exit—depending on my tone and posture.

Tone and posture matter.

I will be at the defendants table in six days. Thanks to everyone who has helped thus far!!

BeoBill · Aug 21, 2018

Rack&Roll said:
I will be at the defendants table in six days. Thanks to everyone who has helped thus far!!

Like many, many of us have proven by word and deed: "We got your six!" Everything else is just background noise.

Counting down to trial day. WIN! That's what matters.

Mightydog · Aug 21, 2018

BeoBill said:
Like many, many of us have proven by word and deed: "We got your six!" Everything else is just background noise.

Counting down to trial day. WIN! That's what matters.

what he said x 100!

outrider58 · Aug 21, 2018

fidelity said:
Good post. Worth reading in its entirety.

I'm really bothered by the direction this thread took, and by people that I like that I quote below.

Why bring this here? It was on MDS FB. You know who the individual is and that he was active here. You've bought a firearm from him before, right? Did you think he wouldn't respond and thus out himself on the public part of the board?

You of course know him too. I remember happier times not long ago ...

https://www.mdshooters.com/showthread.php?p=5033102

Why use his name when he hadn't said anything in this thread?

He could have raised the same questions in this thread under his alias but didn't. Maybe he didn't want to derail it (or "troll" it). There are times when he might step over the line here and the mods take care of it. What I saw posted by him on FB didn't look particularly egregious but we may moderate things differently there (and I can understand why). However I'm puzzled why this was brought here, especially using his real name, as the outing is almost predictable then.

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk

Never mind. I'm no help at all.

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk

Mr. Ed · Aug 21, 2018

Rack&Roll said:
I will be at the defendants table in six days. Thanks to everyone who has helped thus far!!

Would you like some moral support from the peanut gallery? :cool:

fidelity · Aug 21, 2018

Rack&Roll said:
...
The question was directed at ME, so it was mine to answer. I addressed the questioner by his FB name and and took no action to connect him to his screen name here.
...
Questioning me about my contribution to my own defense was legit. Happy to answer.
...

And you referred to him in the third person now, which could have been done the first time vs personalizing it using the name of an active forum member. Or even spoken in general, i.e. "I know that folks sometimes raise the question of ...". And if you didn't want to, you could reach out to him in a text message because you do know him. While you've done a good job, a patient job in explaining your position and motivation, people will ask keep asking questions. I understand that this isn't easy, but communication is your forte and you have a big megaphone.

Rack&Roll said:
...
I do know that the next time I go to Larry’s Pub and yell out “Is the beer COLD in this joint?” I will be welcomed—or marched to the exit—depending on my tone and posture.

Tone and posture matter. ..

As long as you're not arrested on your next visit to Larry's, lol.

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welder516 · Aug 21, 2018

Moral dilemma for me i like all the people is this Shakespeare Play , the person that ask the question really is a generous member and funny as all get out . Folks life is too short to carry a big chip on your shoulder , yeah we all have been treated like chit almost every day or at least every week or so . :innocent0

Yeah i been pissed , i have laughed my arse off . Everyone here is one big pain in the ass

. But really where are you going to get instant help , or a snarky answer to a question .

I guess maybe i have said enough but go ahead and finish the play , i want to see who drinks the poison . :lol2:

gtodave · Aug 21, 2018

Mightydog said:
How has this thread become so unglued?

Welcome to the internet. It's a riot.

Rack&Roll · Aug 21, 2018

gtodave said:
Welcome to the internet. It's a riot.

Well, actually the Internet is chaotic, and....

R&R Arrested at March On NRA

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