frogman68
товарищ плачевная
- Apr 7, 2013
- 8,774
Need help. Handloads keyholing/tumbling
- Thread starter gre24ene
- Start date
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gre24ene
Ultimate Member
- Mar 6, 2012
- 1,519
Newbie to reloading too
My recipe is 4.4 tite group same coal no keyholing Glock 19 Gen 3
Never heard this about tite group not being newbie friendly. What I really like about this recipe it is the same for my Sistema 1927 , just move the lee powder dispenser between my two turrets
My handloads don't keyhole/tumble when shot from any of my handguns.
Am I safe to assume that your 4.4gr load is for 124gr bullets?
Also, if I'm not mistaken 4.4 is the max load for 124gr.
That can be for every powder though
Nope. A lot of powders will overflow the cartridge if double charged. Titegroup is notorious for being unforgiving and easy to miss. It tends to be smokey with some coated bullets too. It has pros and cons like any powder.
frogman68
товарищ плачевная
- Apr 7, 2013
- 8,774
Correct everything is the same between our 2 recipes except for the grain amount . I tried the 4 grains and it had cycling issues
gre24ene
Ultimate Member
- Mar 6, 2012
- 1,519
Copy. I have loaded 3.8gr of TG and they shot good and cycled all my handguns. But the 4.0 gr seemed a little more accurate.
How are your 4.4gr loads when it comes to accuracy, recoil, and dirtiness of the case?
frogman68
товарищ плачевная
- Apr 7, 2013
- 8,774
Accuracy is great , dirtiness is minimal. Recoil (I shot 45 so I am not a good gauge) i don't notice but will say wife has no issues with it cycling (being a Glock and being finicky with grip)
paxfish
Ultimate Member
I WAS being a smart ass!
gre24ene
Ultimate Member
- Mar 6, 2012
- 1,519
- Feb 4, 2013
- 28,175
A fast powder with lead bullets in some firearms can be problematic. I think the fast powder causes the lead to strip in the rifling. Especially if the bullet is a bit small for the bore.
We had trouble with WW231 in Sig 229 .40s. Switching to HS-6 with the same bullets solved the problem.
We had trouble with WW231 in Sig 229 .40s. Switching to HS-6 with the same bullets solved the problem.
FlatsFlite
Active Member
Personally, I would try a slower powder, then heavier bullets. I believe that the Sub 2000, along with most other carbines, use a 1:10 twist rate which is way too fast, but yet they keep making them. The longer and heavier bullet you can sling with a slower powder the better. You have plenty of barrel length to get a good burn. No need for a fast powder.
And a note on COL., I don't care what it says in the books, for God's sake keep the bullet off the lands -- the fastest way to a kaboom with a max load.
And a note on COL., I don't care what it says in the books, for God's sake keep the bullet off the lands -- the fastest way to a kaboom with a max load.
pcfixer
Ultimate Member
I've heard the pros/cons of TG for a long time. Not experienced the smoky rounds nor double charging at all.
Shot 45 ACP with 230 grain RN, 4.8 gr TG, COL is less 1.200 usually 1.145 to 1.150
Whole issue I see is FCD being < .470 measured . I check factory rounds for this measurement. Always drop a couple in the chamber to check. Occasionlly have had rounds not firmly seat in chamber will cause misfire.
Not seen keyhole rounds, very accurate If I do my part.
Shot 45 ACP with 230 grain RN, 4.8 gr TG, COL is less 1.200 usually 1.145 to 1.150
Whole issue I see is FCD being < .470 measured . I check factory rounds for this measurement. Always drop a couple in the chamber to check. Occasionlly have had rounds not firmly seat in chamber will cause misfire.
Not seen keyhole rounds, very accurate If I do my part.
photoracer
Competition Shooter
The OAL depends on the style of bullet shape and type (see any reloading guide from a bullet maker). You may have to load them shorter if your gun prefers that. And then adjust the powder to make up for that as loading shorter will cause pressure to go up.
I generally use Unique when loading lower power loads for pistols and revolvers. It is very consistent for me.
I generally use Unique when loading lower power loads for pistols and revolvers. It is very consistent for me.
FWIW I have put most of my 9mm hand loads through my S2K and have never seen a keyhole, out to 80 yds. That thing surprises me in the accuracy department.
Occasionally I see dirty brass (any firearm) and wonder about it. Could it be the load did not have enough pressure to expand the brass allowing gas to get by a little early?
Occasionally I see dirty brass (any firearm) and wonder about it. Could it be the load did not have enough pressure to expand the brass allowing gas to get by a little early?
DmD
Member
Maybe a slower powder for a longer barrel?
I never had a problem with 4.0 gn of tite group at 124gn in g17.
I never had a problem with 4.0 gn of tite group at 124gn in g17.
MifflinKid
Member
Have you slugged your barrel to determine its diameter? If it was rifled to something like .356" or .357" your bullets may not be wide enough to get a good seal. That, in turn, will reduce their speed and result in under stabilization (which leads to tumbling bullets). Measuring your barrel's diameter will give you a better basis for judging what is happening.
You also mentioned crimping your loads. You should only be removing any belling on your cases. If you crimp you might be squeezing down the bullets. This too will reduce their speed and result in under stabilization. Try pulling some bullets from loaded rounds and measure their diameters. If you have squeezed them down a few thousandths of an inch that could also be cause of the tumbling.
You also mentioned crimping your loads. You should only be removing any belling on your cases. If you crimp you might be squeezing down the bullets. This too will reduce their speed and result in under stabilization. Try pulling some bullets from loaded rounds and measure their diameters. If you have squeezed them down a few thousandths of an inch that could also be cause of the tumbling.
303_enfield
Ultimate Member
Are you getting any pressure signs on the brass? Have you run the ammo over a chronograph? I would bet the your pistol rounds are over speed in the carbine barrel. What does store bought ammo do?
gre24ene
Ultimate Member
- Mar 6, 2012
- 1,519
Factory ammo is good to go. I think I need to adjust the crimp. I just got a Lee Factory crimp die and will try that.
FWIW again, I'm not sure why I was down to 3.0 gr. Titegroup but
G26 818 fps SD 6.8
G19 837 fps SD 15.3
S2K 907 fps SD 10.1
Lee FCD med crimp.
Oh, that was a 165 gr rn xtreme I think Erwos had spoke of and I have results for 2.5 gr as well. I think I had ftc problems that low with pistols but fine with the 16".
G26 818 fps SD 6.8
G19 837 fps SD 15.3
S2K 907 fps SD 10.1
Lee FCD med crimp.
Oh, that was a 165 gr rn xtreme I think Erwos had spoke of and I have results for 2.5 gr as well. I think I had ftc problems that low with pistols but fine with the 16".
Was it keyholing (bullet profile punched through the paper) or oblong holes? Oblong holes are often caused by a lack of stiff backing on the target.
Keyholing is generally caused by the bullets, particularly plated bullets, being too small. Plated bullets, from my experience, should be sized like lead bullets--over actual groove diameter. Most plated bullets I tried were 0.0005 -0.001" smaller than labeled and I could easily see them keyholing.
Another issue can be a damaged muzzle that will cause the escaping gasses to push the bullet off.
Crimp has nothing to do with it, nor does COL.
TiteGroup burns very hot and can be a problem with lead, coated, and some plated bullets. TiteGroup, along with Clays and N310, can throw some pretty large pressure spikes, often at low charge weights. TiteGroup tends to be accurate over a fairly narrow charge weight range.
Keyholing is generally caused by the bullets, particularly plated bullets, being too small. Plated bullets, from my experience, should be sized like lead bullets--over actual groove diameter. Most plated bullets I tried were 0.0005 -0.001" smaller than labeled and I could easily see them keyholing.
Another issue can be a damaged muzzle that will cause the escaping gasses to push the bullet off.
Crimp has nothing to do with it, nor does COL.
TiteGroup burns very hot and can be a problem with lead, coated, and some plated bullets. TiteGroup, along with Clays and N310, can throw some pretty large pressure spikes, often at low charge weights. TiteGroup tends to be accurate over a fairly narrow charge weight range.
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