Systems Check Ready to engage?

ras_oscar · Apr 19, 2020

I have been avoiding reloading for my M1 Garand for some time. All those stories about broken op rods quite simply have made me quite..... careful.

I believe I am ready to prepare my test loads. Would appreciate the forums review of preparations below and let me know if there are any factors I have not yet considered.

Brass: New in the box PPU M1 Garand cartriges, fired from MY rifle. Deprimed with LEE depriming/resizing die, Cases trimmed, deburred and pockets cleaned (most did not take a trim)

Primer: CCI large rifle primers
Bullet: 149 GR FMJ BT

Powder: Varget.
As per Hornady manual, 9th edition, M1 Garand loads:
Start charge 42.3 GR
Never exceed 46.2

My plan: Prepare 8 each of the charges from Start to Never exceed in 0.5 gr increments (42.3, 42.8, 43.2, 43.8, etc) using a dipper and trickler.

Range day,
1. Begin by shooting several clips of commercial M1 ammo to get a feel for proper cycling and recoil.
2. Fire each charge test clip from lowest to highest charge, retaining spent casings and noting if any charges failed to cycle.
3. Final charge will be the lowest which reliably cycles the weapon.

Please note i have zero interest in producing the most accurate charge. The rifle has iron sights which I plan to leave, and my eyes don't go beyond 50 yards without magnification anyway.

I suspect a charge which could damage an op rod would likely operate successfully for may rounds. In the course of testing my loads, what should I look for? Are there any conditions, which if encountered, would indicate i should DISCONTINUE testing?

mac1_131 · Apr 19, 2020

M1 is tougher than most people think. I think you have a good plan. Mic your op rod piston just to verify its in spec as that alone can cause cycling issues.

I don't use varget in mine so can't comment on your load specifics.

You can also chrony it to around 2750.

Doco Overboard · Apr 19, 2020

There was a controversial article for some just published in the last GCA about pressure op-rods etc. that would probably be of interest you. For just beginning to load for an M1 and then testing your ammo what I would be concerned about most is how much of a primer indent you get from a round that's chambered and then removed from battery for inspection.

If your primers are not seated below flush and firing pin indent is too great it could lead to unexpected problems sometimes if the right attention to detail is not done when resizing and preparing the primer pocket.
Even with that it sounds like you have carefully prepared ammo in decent cases for the rifle so it should really be a non issue but something to be aware of.

What you want to make sure of is that primer pockets are uniform and the primers are seated to full depth but not crushed to make them become overly sensitive. And then the internal bridge is not out of spec or the floating firing pin to long for an OOB or slam fire in a M1 rifle.
The rest of its all good fun.

Pinecone · Apr 19, 2020

0.5 grain increments are a bit large.

0.3 or 0.4 would be better.

However, the real answer is to head over CMP Forums and see what people are running with that bullet and powder. Loads for the M1 are WELL sorted. No reason to reinvent the wheel.

You are NOT going to make it shot 1 MOA. Especially with 147 grain FMJBT bullets. More like 4 MOA.

Park ranger · Apr 19, 2020

That is a VERY light load. I put 47 grains of varget in my 308 with a 155 palma bullet (bolt gun). Why dont you put more powder in it? They ain't made of bubble gum.

I'm using 46 of varget with a 175 grain I'm my m1.

Edit: I'm not sure, but that load is so light it may be dangerous.

Matlack · Apr 20, 2020

This was something I copied a number of years ago for M1 garand loads:

Recommended .30 caliber M1 loadings from the NRA

147 - 155 grain FMJ or HPBT bullets
IMR 3031 - 48.0 grains
IMR 4895 - 49.0 grains
IMR 4064 - 50.0 grains
W748 - 48.0 grains
AA2460 - 49.0 grains
AA2520 - 51.0 grains
AA2495 - 50.5 grains
H4895 - 49.0 grains
BLC-2 - 49.0 grains
H335 - 49.0 grains
RL-12 - 48.0 grains

165/168 grain FMJ, HP or SP bullets
IMR 4895 - 47.0 grains
IMR 4094 - 48.0 grains
AA2520 - 47.5 grains
AA2495 - 47.0 grains
H4895 - 47.5 grains
BLC-2 - 49.0 grains
H335 - 47.0 grains
RL-12 - 44.5 grains

173/175 grain FMJ or HPBT bullets
IMR 4895 - 46.0 grains
IMR 4064 - 47.0 grains
AA2460 - 46.0 grains
AA2495 - 46.0 grains
H4895 - 47.0 grains
BLC-2 - 48.0 grains

180 grain FMJ, SP or HPBT bullets
IMR 4895 - 43.0 grains
AA2460 - 46.5 grains
AA2495 - 45.5 grains
H4895 - 44.0 grains
BLC-2 - 47.5 grains
RL-12 - 41.5 grains

Master Po's comments
These loads only duplicate military spec. velocities for the given bullet weight, using commercial cases and powders. If you are using military cases, drop all charges by 2 grains.
If you are looking for accuracy, drop all charges by 1 grain and work up .2 grains at a time.
Master Po's Ancient M1 load secret
This is my personal M1 load I use in my CMP M1. It will shoot better than Master Po can. I worked this load up, as you should for your own rifle.
Remington .30/06 cases, flash holes deburred and weighed within 1 grain.
Federal GM210M Primers (Master Po has heard the horror stories of Federal match primers in the M1/M1A rifles. If you're squeamish or new to reloading, use Winchester Large Rifle)
47.0 grains IMR 4064
Sierra 175 grain MatchKing
Overall length 3.340 inches
This load, in my M1, duplicates almost perfectly the M72 match load specification with a very low standard deviation. Groups off the bench run 1 - 1.5 inches with the original 1945 barrel on the rifle. Of course, Grasshopper YMMV

John from MD · Apr 20, 2020

Varget was always marketed as being temperature insensitive. I shot a couple of kegs and went back to IMR 4895, the powder the Garand was designed for.

K31 · Apr 20, 2020

If you are really that worried you could get an adjustable gas plug.

ras_oscar · Apr 20, 2020

Park ranger said:
That is a VERY light load. I put 47 grains of varget in my 308 with a 155 palma bullet (bolt gun). Why dont you put more powder in it? They ain't made of bubble gum.

I'm using 46 of varget with a 175 grain I'm my m1.

Edit: I'm not sure, but that load is so light it may be dangerous.

That load came from the hornady manual 9th edition for 30-06 M1 Garand. Reports muzzle velocity as follows:

42.3 GR 2400 fps
44.2 gr 2500 fps
46.2 gr 2600 fps
That was using 150 gr-155 gr bullet, FMJ BT which is closest to my bullet.

Yes, I use 44 GR varget in my 308 loads, 149 Gr bullet. ( AR 10)

M1 is a very different animal.

Do you have another source of load data for varget in an M1? Hornady is the only source I could find that published load data for it.

K-43 · Apr 20, 2020

Hornady data is fine and safe. I've used it. After 35 years of reloading for the M1, I find that much hoopla is from people who have heard from some guy. Hornady and NRA aren't just some guy. I have never bent an oprod on 3 Garands by sticking to the data from NRA booklets Matlack listed and then Hornady data. Primer pocket uniforming and making sure primers are seated below the case are the key to no kabooms. I have a friend who did have a kaboom, but he never preps brass. Has issues with his pistol reloads too.
I've never had one, have always used a primer pocket uniformer on all my rifle brass, commercial as well as mil. Even the expensive brands can sometimes use a corner squaring or bottom flattening.
I always went with IMR or H 4895 until the big scarcity, tried a pound of Varget once, but I couldn't get it reliably. Then AA4064 because it was available in 8 lbs jugs when only odd ball Russian stuff was. Recently switched to VVN135 and won't go back to the others, it's that nice to meter and clean. If Varget floats your boat, use the Hornady data. You're Op-Rod will be safe. CMP forum is a great place to learn of what experienced Garand reloaders are doing.

P.S. IMHO this Covid induced scarcity will end soon. People panic buying and hoarding will end along with the shortage of toilet paper. There's going to be a lot of people with caches of ammo they paid too much for.

Park ranger · Apr 20, 2020

ras_oscar said:
That load came from the hornady manual 9th edition for 30-06 M1 Garand. Reports muzzle velocity as follows:

42.3 GR 2400 fps
44.2 gr 2500 fps
46.2 gr 2600 fps
That was using 150 gr-155 gr bullet, FMJ BT which is closest to my bullet.

Yes, I use 44 GR varget in my 308 loads, 149 Gr bullet. ( AR 10)

M1 is a very different animal.

Do you have another source of load data for varget in an M1? Hornady is the only source I could find that published load data for it.

http://radomski.us/njhp/cart_tech.htm

Check this site out, good stuff here

ras_oscar · Apr 26, 2020

Park ranger said:
http://radomski.us/njhp/cart_tech.htm

Check this site out, good stuff here

Thanks for the link. Ironically, the varget/30-06 with 147 grain pill has a recommended charge weight of ??? :innocent0

Other websites have listed varget charges as high as 47 grains. I have loaded up my test clips and will take them to the range once it reopens. Anybody interested in a range report?

Park ranger · Apr 26, 2020

What's the over/ under for a 10 shot group? 5 moa? Lol. Good luck.

Edit: not a snack on you our your reloading skills, just that 147's suck.

Doco Overboard · Apr 26, 2020

ras_oscar said:
Thanks for the link. Ironically, the varget/30-06 with 147 grain pill has a recommended charge weight of ??? Other websites have listed varget charges as high as 47 grains. I have loaded up my test clips and will take them to the range once it reopens. Anybody interested in a range report?

Yeah, Id like to see how you make out and have fun with your rifle.

ras_oscar · Apr 27, 2020

Park ranger said:
What's the over/ under for a 10 shot group? 5 moa? Lol. Good luck.

Edit: not a snack on you our your reloading skills, just that 147's suck.

You should have told me that BEFORE i purchased 3,000

Melnic · Apr 27, 2020

I started with Master Po's numbers and then worked down from there to get POI the same as HXP at 100 yards and an accuracy node really good on my 1903a3 and have been using it for many years.
IMR4895 COL 3.260" 147gr FMJ
I have been shooting WAY more of this out of my Garand and have reloaded about 900+ and shot about 500 at that.

I have a hunting load for the 1903a3 that also works on the Garand with both 150gr Sierra Soft Points and 147fmj
Varget 48gr 3.245" for the SP and 3.260" for the FMJ. This did 2725fps with SP from the 1903a3
I will honestly say that I know I shot the Varget from the Garand but not many and since the POI was different than Greek, I did not use it for the normal shooting, just the IMR4895

Both are below the Master Po Data which worked for me, but not as good as when I did an OCW test.

For first time fired HXP greek ammo, I have had to swage the primer pockets with my RCBS swager.

Since Varget seems harder to get to, I've only used it for my hunting and Mosin Sniper loads just cause IMR4895 is so much easier to get and does pretty well for range use.

K-43 · May 29, 2020

Melnic said:
I started with Master Po's numbers.

"Master Po" is jaholder on m14forum.com and a real life High Master shooter, not some keyboard commando. He started The Temple in 1999 and hasn't kept it up in years. It doesn't cover the newer powders of the past 20 years, but it has the good standards.

Melnick posted his M1 data last year (search MDS for Master Po).
or try the archive link:http://web.archive.org/web/20000620055732/home.att.net/~Masterpo/M1load.htm

Use a primer pocket uniformer and don't listen to the "I knew a guy who's cousin's girlfriend's dog blew his head off" liars. They're hearsay repeaters or negligent handloaders. :mad54:

High primers (not soft primers) are the cause of premature primer ignition in the M1 and M1a/M14 clone.
I'll shoot the "softest" Federal primers all day long in cases I prepped. :party29:

tallen702 · May 29, 2020

John from MD said:
Varget was always marketed as being temperature insensitive. I shot a couple of kegs and went back to IMR 4895, the powder the Garand was designed for.

Good news for me then! I picked up some 4895 to cover most of my milsurp reloads as it seems to cover .30-06, 8mm Mauser, .303 Brit, 7.62x54mmR, 8x56mmR, and .308/7.62Nato pretty well (though in the 7.62 Nato/.308, there ain't much room before you start compressing powder at a 2.005" trim length).

K-43 · May 30, 2020

Tallen,
I've used IMR 4895 as my all milsurp powder since the '70s, too. It was the universal rifle powder before the new generation decided 4064 is. I used 4064 during the Obama shortage because it's all I could find near 4895 and a pound of IMR 4166 once.
Using VV N135 in the M1 now and I'm boycotting Canada and Australia. Even considering Norma 202 and Lovex S062/Shooters World Precision as alternatives. Finland, Sweden, and Czech Republic are bastions of gun owner freedom compared to Canada and Australia now. So Hodgdon supplied stick powders are off my list. Though, GD and ADI make darn good powder.
Shoo, Czech Republic has Shall Issue concealed carry. The difference between desiring Socialism and having thrown off tyranny in our lifetime.

Systems Check Ready to engage?

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