The Law and carrying a firearm at a gun store

Kharstin · Jun 29, 2016

I work for a gun store in Maryland (Baltimore County) and the owner allows employees to carry a firearm in the store to help discourage "problems". My question is this, are employees legally allowed to wear firearm while outside the store but still on the store property. (Example: While taking outthe trash or carrying something to a customers car). If this accepible, could someone point me to the law or legal code that specifies this? Thank you in advance for your help.

Mark75H · Jun 29, 2016

If the business owns all the property, yes; otherwise "common grounds" of the landlord are not part of your employer's business for carrying.

If there is some kind of fence, then the area inside the fence isn't "common grounds" and is part of the business. Otherwise, your employer's business ends at the door.

Trbo6gn · Jun 29, 2016

Do yourself a favor and stop worrying so much. There isn't a federal agent sitting in a tree stand with binoculars waiting for a gun store employee to take out the trash.

clandestine · Jun 29, 2016

Mark75h is on point.

Here is my advice. Conceal the weapon when you go outside (ON BUSINESS PROPERTY) and there will NEVER be a problem with drawing attention.

There is no restriction on the manner of carry Open/Concealed) when carrying on private property.

I will also advise you to get WRITTEN permission to carry while on business property. I'm NOT saying that your boss would lie, but unless its written down, the owner could say they never authorized carry if you ever had to use force to try and deflect litigation.

Tebonski · Jun 30, 2016

I might be more worried about you popping some mope gunman and then being sued by his family for everything you've ever worked for. Will your employer pay all the legal bills? Could run into hundreds of thousands.

clandestine · Jun 30, 2016

Tebonski said:
I might be more worried about you popping some mope gunman and then being sued by his family for everything you've ever worked for. Will your employer pay all the legal bills? Could run into hundreds of thousands.

If that is on on a gun carriers mind then they should just avoid carrying. It will cause a carrier to hesitate.

The gun is to prevent harm and death to the carrier, not worry about lawsuits.

Minuteman · Jun 30, 2016

clandestine said:
Mark75h is on point.

Here is my advice. Conceal the weapon when you go outside (ON BUSINESS PROPERTY) and there will NEVER be a problem with drawing attention.

There is no restriction on the manner of carry Open/Concealed) when carrying on private property.

I will also advise you to get WRITTEN permission to carry while on business property. I'm NOT saying that your boss would lie, but unless its written down, the owner could say they never authorized carry if you ever had to use force to try and deflect litigation.

clandestine said:
If that on on a gun carriers mind then they should just avoid carrying. It will cause a carrier to hesitate.

The gun is to prevent harm and death to the carrier, not worry about lawsuits.

100% this. All of it. You've never been more right.

swinokur · Jun 30, 2016

IIRC MD law was updated to prevent civil lawsuits in a SD shooting.

MattS · Jun 30, 2016

swinokur said:
IIRC MD law was updated to prevent civil lawsuits in a SD shooting.

Even if this is true, you'll likely still need to retain counsel to navigate the initial proceedings. So often the process is the punishment.

DanGuy48 · Jun 30, 2016

I would be very careful. There was a case recently (legal eagles here can name it I'm sure) where an armed employee was told to investigate activity in the facility's parking lot. He encountered a cop there for an unrelated reason who saw he was armed and arrested him. After numerous appeals, the final word was that this club's business was not being conducted in the parking lot and he suffered the consequences. IIRC this was in PG county. Never trust Maryland.

dblas · Jun 30, 2016

DanGuy48 said:
I would be very careful. There was a case recently (legal eagles here can name it I'm sure) where an armed employee was told to investigate activity in the facility's parking lot. He encountered a cop there for an unrelated reason who saw he was armed and arrested him. After numerous appeals, the final word was that this club's business was not being conducted in the parking lot and he suffered the consequences. IIRC this was in PG county. Never trust Maryland.

The above is indeed correct and the issue was covered and advise offered on it in the 2nd post above by Mark75H

lx1x · Jun 30, 2016

Mark75H said:
If the business owns all the property, yes; otherwise "common grounds" of the landlord are not part of your employer's business for carrying.

If there is some kind of fence, then the area inside the fence isn't "common grounds" and is part of the business. Otherwise, your employer's business ends at the door.

This

Trbo6gn said:
Do yourself a favor and stop worrying so much. There isn't a federal agent sitting in a tree stand with binoculars waiting for a gun store employee to take out the trash.

Nah. some are in plain clothes inside the store pretending to be a customer. Lol

PapiBarcelona · Jun 30, 2016

Tebonski said:
I might be more worried about you popping some mope gunman and then being sued by his family for everything you've ever worked for. Will your employer pay all the legal bills? Could run into hundreds of thousands.

What if you stopped a threat with your bare hands? Chainsaw? Baseball bat?

What is being advocated here, that I should get killed?

esqappellate · Jun 30, 2016

I don't give legal advice on the fora so don't rely on this. The controlling statute is MD Code Criminal Section 4-203. It provides in pertinent part that the general ban on "wear, carry, or transport" of a handgun imposed by Section 4-203 does not apply to

(7) the wearing, carrying, or transporting of a handgun by a supervisory employee:
(i) in the course of employment;
(ii) within the confines of the business establishment in which the supervisory employee is employed; and
(iii) when so authorized by the owner or manager of the business establishment;

So, questions to ask: Are you a "supervisory employee" in the eyes of your employer? Will the employer testify to that? What are the "confines" of the business establishment? Confines means: "The supervisory employee exception to the handgun law allows such an employee to carry a handgun, with the employer's permission, within the enclosed premises of the business in which the employee works." Blue v. PG County, 434 Md. 681, 698 (2013). NOT in the parking lot. A copy of 4-203 is attached.

Or the better solution is for you can get a wear and carry permit, if you can.

esqappellate · Jun 30, 2016

DanGuy48 said:
I would be very careful. There was a case recently (legal eagles here can name it I'm sure) where an armed employee was told to investigate activity in the facility's parking lot. He encountered a cop there for an unrelated reason who saw he was armed and arrested him. After numerous appeals, the final word was that this club's business was not being conducted in the parking lot and he suffered the consequences. IIRC this was in PG county. Never trust Maryland.

Blue v. PG County. Attached.

DanGuy48 · Jun 30, 2016

esqappellate said:
Blue v. PG County. Attached.

Thank you; that's it. I've copied the link this time.

Jaybeez · Jun 30, 2016

esqappellate said:
Blue v. PG County. Attached.

I came here to post this. Owner can be anywhere on the property. Employees (supervisory) can only carry within the confines, implying indoors.

doublins · Jul 1, 2016

Jaybeez said:
I came here to post this. Owner can be anywhere on the property. Employees (supervisory) can only carry within the confines, implying indoors.

This is surprising- I knew that the owner could carry on the bounds of the property that he owns or leases, but my *common sense* assumed that for that reason he could permit employees to carry anywhere on the property as well, not just indoors.

doublins · Jul 1, 2016

Following that, actually... just checking here- as a private property owner, guests can carry anywhere within the bounds of my private property, correct, not just indoors? Why are the rules different for leased property on which a business is operated?

esqappellate · Jul 4, 2016

doublins said:
Following that, actually... just checking here- as a private property owner, guests can carry anywhere within the bounds of my private property, correct, not just indoors? Why are the rules different for leased property on which a business is operated?

Not correct. Unless your property is a place covered by 4-203 (eg., a range), they cannot transport a handgun to or possess a handgun on your property.

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