C&R buy in Maryland

IM looking into buying a C&R pistol from a MD resident... we both have C&R's.... So my question is ... Do we need to go through MSP for this?

Either that, use a FFL, or go out of state for the transaction using your C&R.

The only difference for you is that the HQL isn't needed

Meet across state lines... that is the easiest way.

I will direct you to these threads to reinforce what I told you earlier.
http://www.mdshooters.com/showthread.php?t=148532&highlight=hql
http://www.mdshooters.com/showthread.php?t=136502&highlight=hql
http://www.mdshooters.com/showthread.php?t=146001&highlight=hql

Specifically, see this post: http://www.mdshooters.com/showpost.php?p=3038207&postcount=4

Thanks Dave,,, like I had said..Im new to all this....somethings just don't make sense to me...Just bought a M57 from SOG and they sent it to me after I e-mailed them a copy of my C&R ...I have my HQL & C&R..

I'll blame my confusion on the matter because of my age and leave it at that .... Thanks guys for all the info

Doctor_M said:

Meet across state lines... that is the easiest way.

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But you're entering an 03FFL #, Name, and Address into your bound book from another 03FFL who also lives in the state. You can meet in Disneyland and take pictures of the physical transfer, but you're still buying and documenting a handgun transfer directly from a Maryland resident as far as your bound books are concerned.

Where you physically transferred the item it isn't asked in the bound books, but who sold it to you is....An 03FFL does not trump the in-state handgun transfer rules. This was the case pre-SB281 as well, nothing has changed.

This is what Melnic's post states in the "Buying a C&R handgun from an individual within MD" section." Actually it doesn't matter if the buyer or seller has an 03FFL C&R license, only the C&R status of the gun matters in a MD-to-MD handgun transfer, and that just gets you out of an HQL, not the 77r or wait period.

Laddertowr said:

...Just bought a M57 from SOG and they sent it to me after I e-mailed them a copy of my C&R ...I have my HQL & C&R..

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That's an interstate transfer, which is what your C&R license is meant for, and it's perfectly legal. Don't try to apply logic to the state rules, it'll make your head explode.

Hi-Torque said:

But you're entering an 03FFL #, Name, and Address into your bound book from another 03FFL who also lives in the state. You can meet in Disneyland and take pictures of the physical transfer, but you're still buying and documenting a handgun transfer directly from a Maryland resident as far as your bound books are concerned.

Where you physically transferred the item it isn't asked in the bound books, but who sold it to you is....An 03FFL does not trump the in-state handgun transfer rules. This was the case pre-SB281 as well, nothing has changed.

This is what Melnic's post states in the "Buying a C&R handgun from an individual within MD" section." Actually it doesn't matter if the buyer or seller has an 03FFL C&R license, only the C&R status of the gun matters in a MD-to-MD handgun transfer, and that just gets you out of an HQL, not the 77r or wait period.

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Perhaps I'm incorrect about this, but the bound book requirement/documentation pertains to Federal law. There is no issue with two FFL 03s transferring a C&R handgun under federal law. The state law requires all handgun transfers to go though a FFL 01 or MDSP. If the transaction occurs outside of the state of MD, Maryland law should not apply to the transaction.... only if the transfer occurs within the state of MD. Again, this is my understanding and I am not a lawyer.

Doctor_M said:

Perhaps I'm incorrect about this, but the bound book requirement/documentation pertains to Federal law. There is no issue with two FFL 03s transferring a C&R handgun under federal law. The state law requires all handgun transfers to go though a FFL 01 or MDSP. If the transaction occurs outside of the state of MD, Maryland law should not apply to the transaction.... only if the transfer occurs within the state of MD. Again, this is my understanding and I am not a lawyer.

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So, if the buyer/seller (both MD residents) meet in PA for example and conduct this transaction, doesn't PA law apply? It's not an interstate transaction so the C&R license is moot (I think...IANAL).

mgbill said:

So, if the buyer/seller (both MD residents) meet in PA for example and conduct this transaction, doesn't PA law apply? It's not an interstate transaction so the C&R license is moot (I think...IANAL).

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Nope, you are two ffl's doing a transaction.

mgbill said:

So, if the buyer/seller (both MD residents) meet in PA for example and conduct this transaction, doesn't PA law apply?

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Federal law requires the laws of both states to be satisfied for interstate gun sales. So if the buyer and seller are both MD residents doing the transaction in another state, then MD law still applies. Since MD law requires C&R handgun sales between two MD residents (03FFL or not) to occur at an FFL dealer, then that's what must happen for the sale to be legal.

MD law in Maryland. Not Virginia. No C&R pistol transfers inside MD w/o FFL

Boom Boom said:

Federal law requires the laws of both states to be satisfied for interstate gun sales. So if the buyer and seller are both MD residents doing the transaction in another state, then MD law still applies. Since MD law requires C&R handgun sales between two MD residents (03FFL or not) to occur at an FFL dealer, then that's what must happen for the sale to be legal.

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This is debated every month or so here... it depends on who you ask. The above statement about federal law is correct. What is interpreted differently is whether or not the state of MD can regulate what its citizens do outside of its boarders. By doing the transfer in say PA, you only have to obey PA law and Federal law.... and the state of MD can say nothing. Personally I don't think the state of MD can do a thing about it since it occurs outside their boarders and there is a letter from the MD A.G. clarifying that pistols imported from outside MD aren't covered by MD law regarding in state transfers and that is how I interpret a transfer between two FFLs in PA, regardless of their state citizenship. However, I also choose not to risk the pain having to prove it should I somehow get caught up in some bad situation.

The letter I refer too is posted here somewhere by one of the members that was sent him from the MD A.G office.... I keep a copy of it for reference. I don't want to repost it as it isn't mine to repost, but if someone knows of the original posting or if whomever has it can chime in, it might help.

crowleycr said:

MD law in Maryland. Not Virginia. No C&R pistol transfers inside MD w/o FFL

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MD law is in full effect outside of MD for the specific situation the OP asked about (03FFL MD buyer, 03FFL MD seller, C&R handgun). When MD buyer and/or MD seller are physically in another state, the sale becomes interstate, GCA 1968 applies, and GCA 1968 requires the laws of both states to be satisfied. MD law prohibits private sales of modern handguns, including C&R handguns, with no exception for 03FFL. There's no legal way around it. Ignore GCA 1968 at your peril.

CasualObserver said:

This is debated every month or so here... it depends on who you ask. The above statement about federal law is correct. What is interpreted differently is whether or not the state of MD can regulate what its citizens do outside of its boarders. By doing the transfer in say PA, you only have to obey PA law and Federal law.... and the state of MD can say nothing.

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And that's where so many people here fail in their logic. It's not an issue of MD law directly. It's an issue of federal law (GCA 1968) empowering state law for interstate gun sales. Remember: It's not what MD tries to prohibit outside of its borders. It's what federal law prohibits by extension of your home state laws outside of its borders.

Boom-Boom makes some compelling arguments. Bottom line is there are enough red flags that it really doesn't seem smart to try to be sneaky and do a MD-to-MD across the border. It's the address on the licenses that counts.

That letter from the MD AG office states that "Maryland law imposed no restrictions provided that the C&R firearm was being importing directly to a licensee from outside of Maryland." That letter can't be used as justification in this situation (two MD folks meeting outside the state), IMHO due to the "import directly" phrase.

somd_mustangs said:

Boom-Boom makes some compelling arguments. Bottom line is there are enough red flags that it really doesn't seem smart to try to be sneaky and do a MD-to-MD across the border. It's the address on the licenses that counts.

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This is in my opinion is the best course of action.... regardless of what you beleive or how you interpret things, if you want to be safe you'll follow this. Just my 2 cents. There are definately others who disagree.

CasualObserver said:

The letter I refer too is posted here somewhere by one of the members that was sent him from the MD A.G office.... I keep a copy of it for reference. I don't want to repost it as it isn't mine to repost, but if someone knows of the original posting or if whomever has it can chime in, it might help.

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http://www.mdshooters.com/showpost.php?p=490843&postcount=5

CasualObserver said:

Personally I don't think the state of MD can do a thing about it since it occurs outside their boarders and there is a letter from the MD A.G. clarifying that pistols imported from outside MD aren't covered by MD law regarding in state transfers and that is how I interpret a transfer between two FFLs in PA, regardless of their state citizenship.

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That letter says nothing about, and has nothing to do with, two Maryland residents who conduct a transaction out of state. It simply provides that Maryland transfer/registration law does not apply when "Curio & Relic type firearm was being imported directly to the licensee from outside of Maryland." That is a very specific situation, and, accordingly, the letter has a very narrow and specific scope. It doesn't cover or permit anything other than a Maryland resident receiving a C&R firearm at his/her door that has been shipped there from out of state.

Boom Boom said:

MD law is in full effect outside of MD for the specific situation the OP asked about (03FFL MD buyer, 03FFL MD seller, C&R handgun). When MD buyer and/or MD seller are physically in another state, the sale becomes interstate, GCA 1968 applies, and GCA 1968 requires the laws of both states to be satisfied. MD law prohibits private sales of modern handguns, including C&R handguns, with no exception for 03FFL. There's no legal way around it. Ignore GCA 1968 at your peril.



[/B]

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Yes and no. What makes the transaction one involving interstate commerce is the fact that (i) the seller transported the firearm across state lines for the purpose of selling the firearm to another person, and (ii) the buyer transported a firearm purchased in another state across state lines.



This situation is addressed in Section 922(a)(3) of the GCA, which provides, in relevant part, that it shall be unlawful "for any person, other than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector to transport into or receive in the State where he resides (or if the person is a corporation or other business entity, the State where it maintains a place of business) any firearm purchased or otherwise obtained by such person outside that State, except that this paragraph . . . (B) shall not apply to the transportation or receipt of a firearm obtained in conformity with subsection (b)(3) of this section[.]"



Section 922(b)(3) would not apply here, as it addresses a sale by a person resident in one state to a person resident in another state (plus, the statute provides that paragraph (b)(3) does not apply to licensees).



So, boiling this down . . . (i) when two Maryland residents who both hold 03 FFLs travel to, say, PA, for the purpose of buying/selling a C&R handgun, they are engaged in an interstate transaction; and (ii) Section 922(a)(3) does not prohibit (important point/distinction) the transfer because both the buyer and seller hold 03 FFLs.



Then, we look to whether the GCA expressly PERMITS the transaction. We find that in Section 923(c), which provides that "pon the filing of a proper application and payment of the prescribed fee, the Attorney General shall issue to a qualified applicant the appropriate license which, subject to the provisions of this chapter and other applicable provisions of law, shall entitle the licensee to transport, ship, and receive firearms and ammunition covered by such license in interstate or foreign commerce during the period stated in the license.



So, then we look at what "other law" applies. The GCA's provision about compliance "with the laws of both states" is limited in scope to an interstate transfer by a resident of one state to a resident of another state -NOT to a transfer in one state by two people resident in another state. There is no provision of the GCA that says a C&R licensee-resident of one state is subject to that state's laws wherever he goes. The transaction does not occur in Maryland, so I believe (my opinion only) that Maryland has no jurisdiction over the transaction unless the GCA says so, which it doesn't. That would be like saying that the Transportation Article of the Maryland Code applies to a Maryland citizen driving in Florida simply because the driver is from Maryland, and that's not how the law works.

The BATFE has addressed what "other law" applies in its FAQs:



Q: Does the Federal firearms law require licensed collectors to comply with State laws and local published ordinances which are relevant to the enforcement of the GCA?



Yes. It is unlawful for any licensed collector to sell or deliver any firearm or ammunition to any person if the person’s purchase or possession would be in violation of any State law or local published ordinance applicable at the place of sale or delivery.



The place of sale or delivery is PA, and I would argue that the transaction is subject only to PA law. I don't know what PA law says about transactions by out-of-state FFLs within its borders.

somd_mustangs said:

Boom-Boom makes some compelling arguments. Bottom line is there are enough red flags that it really doesn't seem smart to try to be sneaky and do a MD-to-MD across the border. It's the address on the licenses that counts.

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While I would not take a chance given the climate in Maryland, I think there is a strong argument that the transaction is not subject to Maryland law. The one wild card here is that I don't know (I did a quick search and didn't find anything) whether there is a Maryland law that specifically addresses a person (resident or not) bringing a regulated firearm into the State. I don't think it does, but not sure.

The other thing I'll add is that it seems to me that, based on the AG letter, Maryland would not have an interest in pursuing this hypothetical transaction. I know that I said that the letter's scope is very narrow, but it does evidence a position that Maryland is not concerned about interstate transactions by licensees.