Blown up S&W Alloy Frame 1911

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  • jaredm1

    Ultimate Member
    Nov 22, 2008
    1,935
    Shrewsbury
    Well, composite does not mean "plastic based"...concrete is a composite.

    For aluminum vs steel alloys, Al is subject to fatigue failure and will have a much shorter lifespan than even mild steel. Everytime you shoot an Al Alloy framed pistol, it's a little bit weaker than the last time you shot it, whereas a steel alloy frame will weaken to a point, then level off.

    I am not sure how polymer/composite frames compare.
     

    BradMacc82

    Ultimate Member
    Industry Partner
    Aug 17, 2011
    26,177
    Polymer frames have done ok so far, as Glock and a few other mfg's can attest.

    The 2 poly frame guns I have - HK USP .45 and M&P .45 have had no issues whatsoever with the frames.

    Although I haven't had one blow up in my hand, so that'd be a real test. I'd imagine Zytel would probably crack/shatter, but I haven't seen that happen with one yet, so I can only speculate.
     

    Dead Eye

    Banned
    BANNED!!!
    Jul 21, 2010
    3,691
    At Wal-Mart, buying more ammo.
    All true, ya got me.

    I was referring to aluminum alloy 1911-pattern pistol frames.

    Thanks, I wasn't trying to "get" anyone, just trying to clarify since I have a polymer based frame on one of my handguns.

    Well, composite does not mean "plastic based"...concrete is a composite.

    For aluminum vs steel alloys, Al is subject to fatigue failure and will have a much shorter lifespan than even mild steel. Everytime you shoot an Al Alloy framed pistol, it's a little bit weaker than the last time you shot it, whereas a steel alloy frame will weaken to a point, then level off.

    I am not sure how polymer/composite frames compare.

    Interesting, I've never seen a concrete handgun before, but the idea does seem a bit novel, since you could shoot it and then throw it in the street to hide it. :innocent0

    Yes, polymer, probably would have been a better description.

    Actually, if the aluminum eventually fails, then you have surpassed it's Ultimate Strength, and you should have never used that material to begin with. That is called metal fatigue, or in laymen's terms "FAILURE".

    Also, once you pass either steel or aluminum's Elastic Limit, the point where it will not longer return to it's original shape, the material will "yield", or as you say, weaken. It will continue to do so to a point, but eventually it will start to work harden from the heat and pressure introduced into it during the process. As accurately portrayed by the steel, since it is designed properly, it will work harden itself until it becomes stronger than the forces acting on it, should they be surpassed. But since those forces, as in the case of the aluminum, apparently, are stronger than the aluminum's Ultimate Strength, *SNAP* Again, poor design.


    Polymer frames have done ok so far, as Glock and a few other mfg's can attest.

    The 2 poly frame guns I have - HK USP .45 and M&P .45 have had no issues whatsoever with the frames.

    Although I haven't had one blow up in my hand, so that'd be a real test. I'd imagine Zytel would probably crack/shatter, but I haven't seen that happen with one yet, so I can only speculate.

    Yes, why I was asking for clarification is because I have a S&W SW99, .40 cal., and I was wondering if they were beginning to see fatigue issues, over time. "Plastic", by it's very nature and definition, is fluid and therefore, "creeps".
     

    jaredm1

    Ultimate Member
    Nov 22, 2008
    1,935
    Shrewsbury
    Fatigue failure is due to cyclic loading that occurs below the yield strength (elastic region); you do not need to surpass the ultimate strength to fracture a material.

    An aluminum frame may never see stresses that exceed its yield strength, yet it will eventually fail.
     

    booker

    Active Member
    Apr 5, 2008
    776
    Baltimore
    Thanks, I wasn't trying to "get" anyone, just trying to clarify since I have a polymer based frame on one of my handguns.

    Indeed, same here. I am a fan of polymer framed handguns, generally speaking. While I'm not a metalurgist or materials scientist, I do have an engineering and physics background, and from what I know and understand, particulars related to the granular structure of even a high-grade aluminum alloy makes it less than ideal for applications that involve shock. While the deflagration of gunpowder is a (relatively) low-energy event with minimal brisance, the strain and stress of repeated shock into a thin plate of aluminum alloy will, over time, create fatigue and fracturing. For that matter, long-duration vibration inputs or repeated low-level shock and strain will do the same, such as in aircraft structures.

    On the other hand, polymers can be tailored to create highly homogeneous materials, with an extremely fine structure and greater tolerance to the repeated strain of shock events, even tuned to be most tolerant to a specific range of shock frequency inputs. I am particularly impressed by the "polymer over steel" design used in Benelli shotguns.

    Obviously aluminum and other metals have advantages over polymers, as any material choice is a tradeoff. I would think the major disadvantage of polymers is that when they fail, they do not fail gracefully, and tend to shatter.
     

    Indiana Jones

    Wolverine
    Mar 18, 2011
    19,480
    CCN
    I'll settle this. It was clandestines gun, and he tried shoving a 454 cassull in it because he thinks he's the shiznit.
     

    Dead Eye

    Banned
    BANNED!!!
    Jul 21, 2010
    3,691
    At Wal-Mart, buying more ammo.
    Indeed, same here. I am a fan of polymer framed handguns, generally speaking. While I'm not a metalurgist or materials scientist, I do have an engineering and physics background, and from what I know and understand, particulars related to the granular structure of even a high-grade aluminum alloy makes it less than ideal for applications that involve shock. While the deflagration of gunpowder is a (relatively) low-energy event with minimal brisance, the strain and stress of repeated shock into a thin plate of aluminum alloy will, over time, create fatigue and fracturing. For that matter, long-duration vibration inputs or repeated low-level shock and strain will do the same, such as in aircraft structures.

    On the other hand, polymers can be tailored to create highly homogeneous materials, with an extremely fine structure and greater tolerance to the repeated strain of shock events, even tuned to be most tolerant to a specific range of shock frequency inputs. I am particularly impressed by the "polymer over steel" design used in Benelli shotguns.

    Obviously aluminum and other metals have advantages over polymers, as any material choice is a tradeoff. I would think the major disadvantage of polymers is that when they fail, they do not fail gracefully, and tend to shatter.

    Understood. At a low cyclic rate, however, the forces applied are straight physics, based on the material's ability to resist strain. The only other variable that you then have to consider is the shape of the part, to avoid sharp corners, for instance, to prevent stress risers.
     

    Dead Eye

    Banned
    BANNED!!!
    Jul 21, 2010
    3,691
    At Wal-Mart, buying more ammo.
    he was right:

    Yes, nice cop out, but...

    I think we are looking at the "problem" from two different points of view. You are obviously looking at it, or at least describing metal fatigue from a cyclical perspective, as though this particular weapon "beat itself to death". Not saying that it can't or doesn't occur, hence my follow up question as to how well polymer materials hold up over time.

    What I was referring to was the weapon in question. Perhaps cyclical fatigue had something to do with it and maybe not, that would depend on how many rounds have been fired, which also induces shock, heat, and chemical factors that can further add to the failure. What I am describing is a purely simplistic view of strength of materials, as it applies to a general load, without getting in to all the minutia. This weapon did not fail due to cyclic loading. Weakened perhaps, but it failed due to an overload of powder, hence a one time shock load to its frame. THAT throws all of the cyclical loading phenomena out the window, and puts the problem more in perspective to applied dynamic loads on a static body.

    Yep, you're both right. Why do I waste my time.
     

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