Montoya Hearing Deliberation Audio-Shocking!

Matlack · Oct 6, 2016

Tim, What you may consider is that Mrs. Whites recusal was not just for the public testimony but also deliberations. Once she recused herself she should have stepped out of the proceedings and should not have had any additional participation. The fact that she not only participated in deliberations, but actively lead the discussion means you should be granted a rehearing. You should be granted the ability to have the courts hear your case based on the new evidence. I would not have sat on this testimony and asked your lawyer immediately. If you have not yet spoken to your attorney who represented you during the proceedings, I would do it now and not wait. Anyone else denied by the board who had a member recuse themselves for any reason should look for their deliberations recording and seek a rehearing if they participated in the deliberations. Im also concerned that no other board member realized the conflict of interest that had occurred with Mrs. White participating in the deliberations after her recusal.

gorckat · Oct 6, 2016

Blaster229 said:
Oh didn't you know? They assume all vicarious liability for all of their decisions. So they think.

Is there anything else issued by the MSP? Do they approve car inspection places? Are they on the hook if an inspection station takes bribes to pass bad vehicles that then cause accidents?

Something like that might be an angle to attack that reasoning on restrictions.

Biggfoot44 · Oct 6, 2016

Ok, here's a partial disconect:

Version #1- Employer needs to verify employment status and job description.

Version #2- Employer needs to state either that being armed is job requirement, or at least that they would wish for you to be armed.

Same thing ? Sort of close?

Stoveman · Oct 6, 2016

Matlack said:
Tim, What you may consider is that Mrs. Whites recusal was not just for the public testimony but also deliberations. Once she recused herself she should have stepped out of the proceedings and should not have had any additional participation. The fact that she not only participated in deliberations, but actively lead the discussion means you should be granted a rehearing. You should be granted the ability to have the courts hear your case based on the new evidence. I would not have sat on this testimony and asked your lawyer immediately. If you have not yet spoken to your attorney who represented you during the proceedings, I would do it now and not wait. Anyone else denied by the board who had a member recuse themselves for any reason should look for their deliberations recording and seek a rehearing if they participated in the deliberations. Im also concerned that no other board member realized the conflict of interest that had occurred with Mrs. White participating in the deliberations after her recusal.

There has been only been one other recusal of which I am aware and that was Dick Jurgena. There was a meeting between the time in which he was slandered in the Senate by McFadden and the actual vote by the Senate to confirm and since Jurgena knew his status as a board member was unclear or possibly in jeopardy he recused himself from the proceedings that night and did not go into a closed session hearing.

Of course Dick Jurgena is a man of class, honor and integrity, qualities that Courtney White apparently doesn't possess.

mxrider · Oct 6, 2016

Biggfoot44 said:
Ok, here's a partial disconect:

Version #1- Employer needs to verify employment status and job description.

Version #2- Employer needs to state either that being armed is job requirement, or at least that they would wish for you to be armed.

Same thing ? Sort of close?

Two very district different things.

Depending on the job, #1 may be sufficient

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dblas · Oct 6, 2016

Jaybeez said:
There exists judicial precedent, in Snowdon, Scherr, and Woollard (even though they refuse acknowledge that one).

These 3 cases were denials by MSP and the HPRB, that the applicants decided to challenge in court. All 3 ended at the 4th circuit court of appeals.

Snowden and Scherr ended at the Maryland Court of Special Appeals, not the Federal 4th Circuit. (Just FYI)

Jaybeez said:
The question in all 3 cases was essentially 'does the board and MSP have grounds to deny this applicant'. In all 3 cases, it was ruled that they did. But in essence, this has only told the board and MSP how restrictive they can be. The issue of how permissive they can be has never been addressed. That particular board, or that particular Secretary of state police, can say that xxx is not a Good and Substantial reason. It doesnt prevent a new board or new Secretary from saying something else, or even xxx now is a Good and Substantial.

Bingo.

Jaybeez said:
In addition, reasonable precaution against apprehended danger is a Good and Substantial reason. And it is subjective. That means this board and this secretary can examine it. And there is clear history, and precedent, that reasonable precaution against apprehended danger is, and has been, much less scrutinized in the past. Especially if you remove the scrutiny and bemchmarks that were "just made up", as stated in Scherr.

dblas · Oct 6, 2016

POP57 said:
I've read enough of your posts to wonder where your loyalties lie. You seem to have a huge disdain for Hogan although he is only been in office for a year or two. It's sad that you think politics is a one issue game. He wasn't elected on his lack of a 2A platform. He was elected because the people of Maryland thought he was the right guy for the job. Compared to those in the near past, I think he's doing a pretty good job. Sorry you don't feel that way.

If I'm way off base, than you are a Democrat shill.

Some voters are single issue people, like a lot of folks here, and that is their prerogative, I don't see the Governor doing anything substantial with regards to 2A in this tenure, maybe in the next if he gets elected. Damn shame really.

dblas · Oct 6, 2016

PapiBarcelona said:
Right, because he can undo decades of gun phobia with a wave of the wand?

There is absolutely a lot he can do without the need of the legislature, he is waiting for his second term to do anything.

dblas · Oct 6, 2016

moojersey said:
Nah MuleSkinner is just outspoken. He is 100% with us. I think there is a lot of frustration by Marylanders that you may not understand living in Delaware. You can get a carry permit with minimal hassle, meanwhile we keep going in circles for the dumbest details of the process.

PJDiesel · Oct 6, 2016

Second term..........day one.

2TD1.

Ef em.

cool_t_1 · Oct 6, 2016

I recently obtained a permit and it has the standard while conducting business restrictions. I applied as both a Realtor and business owner (property management).

"Valid only while conducting business as Owner of XXX LLC/ as a licensed Real Estate-Agent (MD ONLY)"

I recently had an informal hearing with the MSP to remove the restrictions. My argument consisted of still being a cleared contractor, OPM breach, disabled veteran, threat against military and veterans, and the fact the most Tenants think I am rich and carry cash all the time (I have been told this!). So I argued that my risk is high due to those mentioned items.

I was told basically that until I am robbed or threatened directly, MSP cannot lift the restrictions.

I already sent the appeal to the HGRB so I will wait until I receive a hearing to pursue the same line of argument and some additional points.

dgapilot · Oct 6, 2016

Content of the behind closed doors meeting aside, what I find most troubling is Chairman Wilsons inaction by allowing a member that recused herself, and a non-member, to participate in the deliberations. To me, this is the most glaring problem with this board. While Mr. Wilson has acted as our advocate in public, his not controlling the activities in closed session is appalling!

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dblas · Oct 6, 2016

fightinbluhen51 said:
And at that point, won't it be an inter-agency pissing match?

If MSP doesn't like the overturn, they can (and have in the past) do an administrative appeal of the HPRB ruling to any County Circuit Court.

Biggfoot44 · Oct 6, 2016

ANY Circuit Court ? Does it have to have any nexus to the individual, or for that matter MSP Hq?

So then could MSP always initiate action in MoCo , and applicants on Eastern Shore or Western Md no matter where they live or do business ?( or whatever they do during the day, not trying to validate the business recipts only mentality).

dblas · Oct 6, 2016

PJDiesel said:
Second term..........day one.

2TD1.

Ef em.

Yep.

dblas · Oct 6, 2016

Biggfoot44 said:
ANY Circuit Court ? Does it have to have any nexus to the individual, or for that matter MSP Hq?

So then could MSP always initiate action in MoCo , and applicants on Eastern Shore or Western Md no matter where they live or do business ?( or whatever they do during the day, not trying to validate the business recipts only mentality).

I believe it should be the Circuit Court in the County the applicant lives in, but not required, and it appears that the MSP has filed all of their appeals in the Baltimore County Circuit Court, per Maryland Judicial Case Search.

Stoveman · Oct 6, 2016

dgapilot said:
Content of the behind closed doors meeting aside, what I find most troubling is Chairman Wilsons inaction by allowing a member that recused herself, and a non-member, to participate in the deliberations. To me, this is the most glaring problem with this board. While Mr. Wilson has acted as our advocate in public, his not controlling the activities in closed session is appalling!

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Great point. One has to wonder if this is currently happening in closed session.

dgapilot · Oct 6, 2016

Stoveman said:
Great point. One has to wonder if this is currently happening in closed session.

I really think this is exactly what the open meetings thing is supposed to prevent. If all closed sessions take on this type of behavior, it is clearly abuse of power!

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Muleskinner · Oct 6, 2016

POP57 said:
I've read enough of your posts to wonder where your loyalties lie. You seem to have a huge disdain for Hogan although he is only been in office for a year or two. It's sad that you think politics is a one issue game. He wasn't elected on his lack of a 2A platform. He was elected because the people of Maryland thought he was the right guy for the job. Compared to those in the near past, I think he's doing a pretty good job. Sorry you don't feel that way.

If I'm way off base, than you are a Democrat shill.

If you seriously think I am a democrat shill you haven't read enough of my posts...I am not a one issue voter however I strongly believe that all the freedoms and rights that we enjoy as Americans are protected by a Bible and a gun. Without the right defend yourself you are not a citizen, you are a slave....and history has proven me right endless times..so go ahead and vote for Hogan and trust that he will have your back in his second term (if he gets one)...As for me, I learned long ago that a politicians promises and a septic tank contain exactly the same thing...

CrueChief · Oct 6, 2016

Muleskinner said:
If you seriously think I am a democrat shill you haven't read enough of my posts...I am not a one issue voter however I strongly believe that all the freedoms and rights that we enjoy as Americans are protected by a Bible and a gun. Without the right defend yourself you are not a citizen, you are a slave....and history has proven me right endless times..so go ahead and vote for Hogan and trust that he will have your back in his second term (if he gets one)...As for me, I learned long ago that a politicians promises and a septic tank contain exactly the same thing...

Montoya Hearing Deliberation Audio-Shocking!

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