Mystery Argentine Navy Colt (by Colt)

Machodoc · Nov 29, 2014

Boom Boom said:
It means Colt Model 1911 production contract 84. You'll probably have to verify with Colt if contract 84 is Argentina. It should be, since the commercial serial number falls within the correct range for one of the Argentine production runs.

Boom Boom - Can you source that info for me? Is that in Clawson or another work, or is there an internet resource for it?

I'll probably eventually end up popping for $100 to get a letter on this one, but realize that it's not worth it from the average collector's standpoint. For me, though, figuring out the history of an interesting piece is part of the fun, and it would be as enjoyable to me to get that letter (if it reveals anything of interest) as spending the same amount taking the wife out to dinner ... but don't tell her that!

First, though, I want to see what I can find out here and online, and I want to look inside the gun and take more pics.

Boom Boom · Nov 29, 2014

Multiple places online. Your S/N does not come up in Colt's online database but that doesn't mean much. The refurb condition merits a letter. Instead of a $700 pistol, you'll have a $1K pistol.

Machodoc · Nov 29, 2014

Boom Boom said:
Multiple places online. Your S/N does not come up in Colt's online database but that doesn't mean much. The refurb condition merits a letter. Instead of a $700 pistol, you'll have a $1K pistol.

Thanks, B-B!

Lou45 · Nov 29, 2014

Boom Boom said:
It means Colt Model 1911 production contract 84. You'll probably have to verify with Colt if contract 84 is Argentina. It should be, since the commercial serial number falls within the correct range for one of the Argentine production runs.

BB, I have a feeling that the "84" you reference for possibly being a contract number may be incorrect. If ya' read below quoted post, Machodoc indicated a like type gun that's only about 75 serial numbers from his, has "88", not the "84". Based on this, I don't think those numbers 88 and 84 are contract numbers. I suspect they're rack numbers OR the number of the gun in sequence that was refurbished by the Argentines during that period with the black oxide finish; perhaps experimental finish as that was not the finish of choice back in the day.

Machodoc said:
All of these comments are related. Keep in mind that I'm not trying to turn this into anything that it isn't but only trying to figure out what it actually is ... read on ....

Correct, except that I've got, and have seen, other Argentine "arsenal refurbs" and they all were much lighter in color just to begin with (the color that this one appears to be in the photos). This one looks black in person.

Yes. That's a big part of it. More about that in a moment.

It almost certainly should be blued. Black oxide was first recorded as a Mil Spec in 1956, from what I can tell. The process goes back earlier than that, but everything indicates that in 1926 the gun should have been blued.

I have not taken this gun down yet, nor did the previous owner. It has no "idiot scratches" on it, and I don't want to put the first ones on there, so I'm slow to go into it ... but from what I can see from the outside, the internal and removable externals are still blued, perhaps in original blue.

I'm going to try to take a look deeper inside today, if my schedule permits.

Yep. I'm hoping that someone will have access to some better data than I was able to find, and will share it with me.

OK ... let's get to the interesting part.

http://forums.1911forum.com/showthread.php?t=367768

If you'll take a looks at this thread on the 1911 forum, you'll see the only other gun that I've been able to find in the "145XXX" serial number range. Oddly enough, this one is showing to be "1451xx" (the last numbers are blocked out), so it's in the same 100 series as mine ... within no more than 75 numbers of mine, in fact. I've seen other photos of this same gun because the guy posted in in a couple of different forums a couple of years ago.

This gun has the same black finish as mine.

This gun also has the same "M--11." marking as mine, but it's followed with an "88" instead of the "84" that mine has.

I'm not sure if it has an import mark on the barrel, or not. I'm trying to reach the guy who posted these photos.

His does not have the Armada Argentina roll mark.

So ... the mystery is how and why two guns with very close serial numbers ended up with the same type of unusual park job that was done after an unusual number was stamped into the frame for some reason. Both guns appear to have been used very little, are tight, and show minimal signs of mechanical wear. At least one (mine) has a small amount of holster wear that goes through the black oxide finish. At least one has an early import mark from a company known to have imported Argentine (and other S. Amer.) firearms (more about them in a later post). Only one has an Armada roll mark.

For some reason, two guns out of the same batch were given the same unusual treatment. Both apparently started out in far better (less used) condition than the average ex-military Argentine import.

What does all this mean?

Boom Boom · Nov 29, 2014

Lou45 said:
BB, I have a feeling that the "84" you reference for possibly being a contract number may be incorrect. If ya' read below quoted post, Machodoc indicated a like type gun that's only about 75 serial numbers from his, has "88", not the "84". Based on this, I don't think those numbers 88 and 84 are contract numbers. I suspect they're rack numbers OR the number of the gun in sequence that was refurbished by the Argentines during that period with the black oxide finish; perhaps experimental finish as that was not the finish of choice back in the day.

I'm not entirely convinced the numbers are unique to Argentine pistols. A refurb number makes more sense to me.

Here's another commercial refurb with "M-11. 123", http://www.gunauction.com/buy/9509397. Not an Argentine slide but possible the slide was replaced. On a side note, has obvious pitting, sold for $1K four years ago, and its condition sucks compared to Machodoc's.

"M-11. 57" is Argentine, http://www.coltforum.com/forums/colt-semiauto-pistols/45783-colt-1911a1-marina-argentina.html

somd_mustangs · Nov 29, 2014

Step 1 will be to definitively determine what lot/contract this gun came from. Clawson's Commercial 1911 book probably has that info; Goddard stops at the 1911 (no -A1).
I have oodles of ref books but not Clawson(s). I guess I need to rectify that...

So doc, did you get a chance to pull the firing pin stop out and see if the slide S/N matches? (Step 2)

As others have stated, the original finish would have been the polished blue used for the commercial Colts of the day (and the other Colt-made, pre-WW2 Argentine Navy guns I've seen were polished blue for whatever that's worth).

The finish now looks a lot like a sandblast underneath "something". With Boom-Boom's link that's 3 guns in the same range with the blasted finish & M11 #'s plus one very badly reblued (lower S/N??).
I had one of the early Argentine Army guns (C20000) and it had a matte/semi-gloss black finish (refinish I should say).
It was a little soft and easily scratched as I found out the hard way, but it was over a polished gun, not blasted.

I've seen a few of the Colt Argentine contract guns with import markings on barrel - I think they were NHM (one was an early 40's Navy).

one last thing - the ref thread Boom Boom pointed to said something about "the correct M11" marking on the frame.
I've never seen that on an original finish Argentine Colt. What's the source for that info?
I wish I'd kept the pics of two Navy guns a buddy of mine had. Dag-gone-it.

Machodoc · Nov 29, 2014

B-B ...

As Lou suggests, the range of the numbers coming after the M--11. stamp just don't seem to be adding up to be contract numbers. There are just too many different ones on guns that are relatively close together in serial number sequence. I also find it interesting that we've only come up with four guns that are numbered that way so far, and they're all four different numbers.

As for a refurb number, why would there be such a number on the one that you linked to last, when it doesn't appear to have been refurb'd ... or, at least, I should say, not in black oxide? Or if it was a refurb number, why were three of the four that we've located done with one process, and the fourth done differently?

I like trying to figure out this odd stuff. :-)

Mine had the number put onto it before the black oxide was applied, and it shows signs of (very light) holster wear through the black oxide finish, suggesting that it was at least carried some after the oxide process was done to it.

I'm going to go ahead and letter this one, hoping that it will result in some sort of info.

Boom Boom · Nov 29, 2014

Probably refinished multiple times. That's not the original finish. Doesn't look like any arsenal refinish. It's hideous. Look close at the edges. They are completely gone in places (heavily rounded off).

somd_mustangs · Nov 29, 2014

yeah, that last "blued" gun is a giant POS with all mixed-up parts.

somd_mustangs · Nov 29, 2014

Machodoc said:
B-B ...
I'm going to go ahead and letter this one, hoping that it will result in some sort of info.

so we'll know in about 3-6 months

Boom Boom · Nov 29, 2014

Machodoc, definitely get the letter. Yours looks completely original (for a refurb), in excellent condition. Market prices are a little weak right now but yours with the letter could be a $1,500+ pistol before you know it.

Machodoc · Nov 29, 2014

somd_mustangs said:
Step 1 will be to definitively determine what lot/contract this gun came from. Clawson's Commercial 1911 book probably has that info; Goddard stops at the 1911 (no -A1).
I have oodles of ref books but not Clawson(s). I guess I need to rectify that...

Yeah ... that would sure help. I was hoping that someone here would have a copy (like ... YOU) and was waiting to see you buzz in on this one. Poop! We'll have to see if Mawkie's got one in his personal Library of Mawkie Congress.

somd_mustangs said:
So doc, did you get a chance to pull the firing pin stop out and see if the slide S/N matches? (Step 2)

Had the chance, but didn't do it. Kind of hesitant to, but know I've gotta do it.

somd_mustangs said:
The finish now looks a lot like a sandblast underneath "something". With Boom-Boom's link that's 3 guns in the same range with the blasted finish & M11 #'s plus one very badly reblued (lower S/N??).

Mine was probably media blasted with something, but it was done far more lightly than most of the ones that I've seen (particularly those Argentines that came through "The S Word" company). It may have been done with glass micro bead. It's a shame that it was done at all, but it's not terrible.

somd_mustangs said:
I've seen a few of the Colt Argentine contract guns with import markings on barrel - I think they were NHM (one was an early 40's Navy).

Yeah ... not sure why I didn't mention that earlier. The mark on the barrel of this one is NHM ... New Helvetia Mercantile ... one of Edward Faust's several companies in Sacramento. NHM was incorporated in 1983, and I suspect that this was one of their earlier imports.

somd_mustangs said:
one last thing - the ref thread Boom Boom pointed to said something about "the correct M11" marking on the frame.
I've never seen that on an original finish Argentine Colt. What's the source for that info?

I noticed that too, but it was in one of the links, and didn't originate from Boom Boom. I think I've found a similar statement somewhere else on the interwebs, as well, but no source for it. On the contrary, most of the comments that I've seen about those marks have been along the lines of the same speculating that we're doing here: lots of reasonable guesses, but nothing that we can pin down for sure.

Boom Boom · Nov 30, 2014

If anybody has the definitive "M-11" answer, it's probably Colt.

Machodoc · Nov 30, 2014

Boom Boom said:
If anybody has the definitive "M-11" answer, it's probably Colt.

Do you think that would show up automatically in the letter, or do I need to try to pin down one of their archivists for that?

Boom Boom · Nov 30, 2014

I would ask the question in a brief letter when you send them the gun.

Machodoc · Nov 30, 2014

Lou45 said:
If ya' read below quoted post, Machodoc indicated a like type gun that's only about 75 serial numbers from his, has "88", not the "84". Based on this, I don't think those numbers 88 and 84 are contract numbers. I suspect they're rack numbers OR the number of the gun in sequence that was refurbished by the Argentines during that period with the black oxide finish; perhaps experimental finish as that was not the finish of choice back in the day.

Lou - I don't know if that's the explanation that makes the most sense, or if it's just one that I'd like to be true, but that's more the direction that I'm leaning at the moment. It seems to me that there'd have been more utility for this series of "M--11. xx" numbers to have been for inventory-management than as numbers for refurbishing. If anything, I'd tend to expect refurbs to have had batch numbers, other than individual numbers.

We are talking about guns that were probably carried to sea, and were in a salt-spray environment. If someone came up with an idea for a process that the American military was using, and that held up better than polished blue in the salt air, it may have seemed attractive.

Then there's always the additional possibility that some of the senior military thought that the matte black oxide finish looked pretty darned kewl at the time, and added to their swagger when they had the opportunity to carry a sidearm. This may be total crap, of course, but it would be a possible explanation for why at least two of these (maybe three) with the M--11. marks on them are tight guns that don't show the usual level of wear that we generally see on Argentine exports.

It will sure be nice if we can eventually find out.

Lou45 · Nov 30, 2014

Machodoc said:
Lou - I don't know if that's the explanation that makes the most sense, or if it's just one that I'd like to be true, but that's more the direction that I'm leaning at the moment. It seems to me that there'd have been more utility for this series of "M--11. xx" numbers to have been for inventory-management than as numbers for refurbishing. If anything, I'd tend to expect refurbs to have had batch numbers, other than individual numbers.

We are talking about guns that were probably carried to sea, and were in a salt-spray environment. If someone came up with an idea for a process that the American military was using, and that held up better than polished blue in the salt air, it may have seemed attractive.

Then there's always the additional possibility that some of the senior military thought that the matte black oxide finish looked pretty darned kewl at the time, and added to their swagger when they had the opportunity to carry a sidearm. This may be total crap, of course, but it would be a possible explanation for why at least two of these (maybe three) with the M--11. marks on them are tight guns that don't show the usual level of wear that we generally see on Argentine exports.

It will sure be nice if we can eventually find out.

Lookin' "Kewl"??? If that were the case, something of "special issue" to a parade unit, high ranking officer, or whatever else could be an explanation. If you look at Colt and possibly other 1911-A1 US contract WWII manufacturers (this may be conducive to Colt only) the "General's Issue" pistol. These are worth a premium if accompanied with the proper provenance. If something of this matter is true, I think the only true source of info would be the Argentine government as these guns were apparently refurbed/refinished there, not by Colt.

Machodoc · Nov 30, 2014

Lou45 said:
Lookin' "Kewl"??? If that were the case, something of "special issue" to a parade unit, high ranking officer, or whatever else could be an explanation. If you look at Colt and possibly other 1911-A1 US contract WWII manufacturers (this may be conducive to Colt only) the "General's Issue" pistol. These are worth a premium if accompanied with the proper provenance. If something of this matter is true, I think the only true source of info would be the Argentine government as these guns were apparently refurbed/refinished there, not by Colt.

I'd be inclined to lean toward the high-ranking officer theory first. That would explain why a gun would appear used, but very little, and still be pretty much factory tight after almost 90 years.

Here's another tidbit that I found on this Argentine website: http://www.domenech.com.ar/coltenargentina.htm

1924/27
La Marina adquiere otra partida de pistolas 1911-A1, que es entregada por la Colt de la siguiente forma:
1924 78 pistolas rango numeración C 140.700 a C 140.900
1925 78 pistolas rango numeración C144.100 a C 145.300
1927 150 pistolas rango numeración C 154.600 a C 155.000

This says that there were 78 pistols acquired by the Argentine Navy in 1925, and that they fell withing the serial number range of C144,100 to C 145,300.

Lou45 · Nov 30, 2014

Machodoc said:
I'd be inclined to lean toward the high-ranking officer theory first. That would explain why a gun would appear used, but very little, and still be pretty much factory tight after almost 90 years.

Here's another tidbit that I found on this Argentine website: http://www.domenech.com.ar/coltenargentina.htm

1924/27
La Marina adquiere otra partida de pistolas 1911-A1, que es entregada por la Colt de la siguiente forma:
1924 78 pistolas rango numeración C 140.700 a C 140.900
1925 78 pistolas rango numeración C144.100 a C 145.300
1927 150 pistolas rango numeración C 154.600 a C 155.000

This says that there were 78 pistols acquired by the Argentine Navy in 1925, and that they fell withing the serial number range of C144,100 to C 145,300.

So if I'm readin' this right, there were only 306 of these guns issued to the Argy Navy, at least during those three years stated.

Machodoc · Nov 30, 2014

Machodoc said:
1924/27
La Marina adquiere otra partida de pistolas 1911-A1, que es entregada por la Colt de la siguiente forma:
1924 78 pistolas rango numeración C 140.700 a C 140.900
1925 78 pistolas rango numeración C144.100 a C 145.300
1927 150 pistolas rango numeración C 154.600 a C 155.000

This says that there were 78 pistols acquired by the Argentine Navy in 1925, and that they fell withing the serial number range of C144,100 to C 145,300.

Lou45 said:
So if I'm readin' this right, there were only 306 of these guns issued to the Argy Navy, at least during those three years stated.

Correct. After I found the above information, I found it repeated on a couple of other sites (in English and Spanish). Someone on one of the English sites said it was straight out of Clawson, so we don't know if Clawson's data was copied on the Argentine site, or if both drew from the same source.

Note that most of the lists online show my serial number to be a 1926, but this data puts everything up to 145,300 into 1925. Lettering the gun should settle that part.

In any case, it just doesn't look like many Colts went to the Argentine Navy in the three years before the "Hartford Colt" contract was fulfilled, and just before the Argentines began to make the Sistema Colts under license to Colt.

Mystery Argentine Navy Colt (by Colt)

The #1 community for Gun Owners of the Northeast

Member Benefits:

Old Guy

Hold my beer. Watch this.

Old Guy

R.I.P.

Hold my beer. Watch this.

-----

Old Guy

Hold my beer. Watch this.

-----

-----

Hold my beer. Watch this.

Old Guy

Attachments

Hold my beer. Watch this.

Old Guy

Hold my beer. Watch this.

Old Guy

R.I.P.

Old Guy

R.I.P.

Old Guy

Users who are viewing this thread

Log in

Forum statistics