Famous C$R Fakes and Frauds

MilsurpDan said:

Look at the new chrsthanthemum stamped over the remnants of the old one that was partially removed. Somebody is out almost $2,000

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I find that one interesting as the mum is the same shape/size AND orientation. If you look at the other text, some of it also appears double struck AND in the same direction. (I don't mean double struck like it was done at two different times by two different people.) Looks like a typical hammer bounce to me. If the receiver doesn't show the area low from the grinding, I'd be tempted to call it legit.

Found another Grey Blanket fantasy piece.

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=507293990

http://forums.gunboards.com/showthr...-SKS-with-East-German-markingins-and-features

Advertised as an East German used Russian SKS.

A bunch of East German SKS parade stocks came in a while ago. Somebody put one on a Russian SKS with a triangle 1 marking in order to make it look authentic. The finish is also not original, it appears to have some kind of black paint applied, notice how the paint is applied over the import marking, not original refurb black paint.

The "Triangle 1" marking was recently found to just be another Soviet refurb marking, nothing to do with East Germany. Be wary when people try to get a premium for an "East German" marked Mosin-Nagant as well.

MilsurpDan said:

Second,

Found this being discussed on Gunboards and wanted to show it here. Another Grey Blanket special, but it's speculated it might have been done too long ago for him to be the faker. Due to that, im not going to throw out any accusations as to who may have done it.

Edit: just re-read the description. "NOT messed with in any way". Yea right

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=507320028

Look at the new chrsthanthemum stamped over the remnants of the old one that was partially removed. Somebody is out almost $2,000

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I was watching that one. I wouldn't say they were out 2 grand on it though, it's an all-matching gun unless someone can prove the S/N's were faked too (the font looks the same as the Type 2 I briefly had). The "Type II" markings look like they may have been re-struck/engraved too. One thing that disturbed me was with that high an S/N it would be unusual to be in that crappy a condition. Worse case it's a $1+k parts gun.

I haven't seen the Gunboards discussion though, maybe there's something more sinister at work here. If not I wouldn't call it fake, but possible "enhanced" or "boosted".

He always says is guns are unmessed-with even if they obviously have been...

smdub said:

I find that one interesting as the mum is the same shape/size AND orientation. If you look at the other text, some of it also appears double struck AND in the same direction. (I don't mean double struck like it was done at two different times by two different people.) Looks like a typical hammer bounce to me. If the receiver doesn't show the area low from the grinding, I'd be tempted to call it legit.

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was typing while you typed this
I think it would warrant a close look before writing it off, but I think these were rollmarks not "struck" marks.
Having all that damn chalk in the markings makes it tough to tell what is going on.

This is a legit one, very early 4-digit #

somd_mustangs said:

I was watching that one. I wouldn't say they were out 2 grand on it though, it's an all-matching gun unless someone can prove the S/N's were faked too (the font looks the same as the Type 2 I briefly had). The "Type II" markings look like they may have been re-struck/engraved too. One thing that disturbed me was with that high an S/N it would be unusual to be in that crappy a condition. Worse case it's a $1+k parts gun.

I haven't seen the Gunboards discussion though, maybe there's something more sinister at work here. If not I wouldn't call it fake, but possible "enhanced" or "boosted".

He always says is guns are unmessed-with even if they obviously have been...

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You're probably right about not being a $2k mistake. Parts alone would make some of the money back like you said.

Looking at the markings and around the vent hole, it looks like some kind of scrubbing or something went on at some point.

Here's the Gunboards thread

http://forums.gunboards.com/showthread.php?412840-Funky-Mum

Mann Accuracy Device "Oarlock Sniper"

I can not find a link to the original auction page but awhile ago there was a successful auction of a fake:
"Unique U.S. Remington Model 1903A3 Bolt Action Rifle in Unusual "Oarlock Sniper" Configuration" which was actually a Mann Accuracy Device similar to those once sold by the CMP for $600 that someone added an oarlock, scope, and a good story to.

Here is a copy of the auction listing and following is the posts of someone who unsuccessfully tried to convince the auction company it was a fraud. There is a link in his write up to the CMP web page with information about the Mann Devices with pictures if you are not familiar with them.

AUCTION LISTING
Lot #: 3515 Estimated Price: $5,000 - $7,500
Unique U.S. Remington Model 1903A3 Bolt Action Rifle in Unusual "Oarlock Sniper" Configuration
Click on the image(s) above to view a larger version
Got one to sell

LOT SOLD
Serial #: 3842114 Manufacturer: Remington Arms Inc
Model: 1903 A3 Type: Rifle
Gauge: 30-06 Catalog Page: N/A
Barrel Length: 22 inch heavy round Finish: bright/parkerized
Grip: N/A Stock: walnut
Class: Curio & Relic Long Gun
Condition Rating:
Description: Originally manufactured as a conventional bolt action military rifle circa World War II, this Remington has been subjected to a radical modification. The "RA FJA" inspected stock has been trimmed down to just over a foot in length, terminating shortly before the front reinforcement bolt and leaving a short straight wrist handle. The rear sight has been deleted, and the original barrel has been replaced with a massive (1 1/4 inch diameter), bright steel bull barrel. A custom steel bracket fixture is mounted to the barrel marked "2 232644-F-2" and "1013 D-9" which serves as the base for a canvas barrel sling and sleeve on the right, a swiveling pintle on the left, and a mounting rail (possibly a repurposed M-16 carry handle rail) on the top. A scope is present on the rail (devoid of commercial markings) with "WARNING NOTICE/INTELLIGENCE SOURCES/OR METHODS INVOLVED" in white paint on top and "U.S. GOVERNMENT PROPERTY/U.S. ARMY/TRAINING DEVICE AGENCY" to the back. The white "warning notice" nomenclature is repeated on the tail end of the truncated stock, and the underside of the barrel is marked "D7553795/F68-7005 #347/WALKER". Included with the rifle is a BEA/BOAC vaccination certification made out to a "Mr. Waller(sic)" with certifications for the British Embassy in Moscow circa 1970-1972 and the American Embassy in Vientiane, Laos circa 1972-1976. According to a statement made by the consignor, the modifications to the rifle were to make it compatible with a swiveling oarlock on a small boat. Designed to keep the oar inside the boat for storage purposes, the oarlock would permit the rifle to be swiveled down out of sight when not in use and then help brace the rifle when flipped up for use with the chopped stock permitting use in the confines of a small boat. Additionally, Walker/Waller was stated as the user of this weapon with the vaccination dates putting him in-country during the final days and aftermath of the Laotian Civil War which saw the Western-allied Laotian government driven out and replaced by the North Vietnamese-backed People's Democratic Republic of Laos.
Condition: Very fine as armorer purpose built. The receiver retains 95% of the arsenal refurbished parkerized finish with some mild pitting visible below the surface and light handling marks overall, and the stock shows mild chips and cracks. The barrel shows some light spotting, and the cover is wearing through slightly at the sling attachment point but is otherwise good with minor staining. The optics are a bit hazy. Mechanically excellent. A highly unusual, possibly unique, clandestine weapons system.
Go Back To List
From Rock Island Auction Company Webpage Premiere Firearms Auction - September 12, 13, & 14, 2014
Looks to me like a home made modification of a Mann Accuracy Device, sold by CMP for $600, meant to deceive to make big bucks at auction. JKL Sr. ( Walker made some Mann barrels)

POSTS FROM THE CMP FORUM

I contacted Rock Island Auctions and asked about this firearm, here is the official response in regards to my inquiry:

"Thank you for your interest in our upcoming September Premiere Firearms Auction. Our describers reviewed your question on the piece having a “Mann Accuracy Device” and noted that it has features which resemble the "mann device" but significant deviations as well. It does not have any additional provenance. The piece is sold as listed, with no guarantee aside from the bold headline. Additional research is encouraged by each potential bidder and we appreciate any feedback and any information you find on the piece."

To recap, they have no provenance to back up the story, they admit that it has Mann Accuracy Device features and it has "no guarantee aside from the BOLD HEADLINE." This is literally a Mann Accuracy Device to which someone attached a swivel mount and scope.


Also, this is in the auction listing:

"A scope is present on the rail (devoid of commercial markings) with "WARNING NOTICE/INTELLIGENCE SOURCES/OR METHODS INVOLVED" in white paint on top and "U.S. GOVERNMENT PROPERTY/U.S. ARMY/TRAINING DEVICE AGENCY" to the back."

Must be a new policy for the secret squirrel agency commandos to write US property and intelligence sources on an otherwise sterile piece of gear (scope rail devoid of other markings). Or this was modified in someone's basement for the purpose of a large auction payout. Occam's razor applies.


"the underside of the barrel is marked "D7553795/F68-7005 #347/WALKER"

Seems that the overall description of the firearm and the way the barrel is marked is consistent with information the CMP has posted here: http://www.odcmp.org/1001/mann_inc.asp


"Additionally, Walker/Waller was stated as the user of this weapon with the vaccination dates putting him in-country during the final days and aftermath of the Laotian Civil War which saw the Western-allied Laotian government driven out and replaced by the North Vietnamese-backed People's Democratic Republic of Laos."

And finally claiming that the manufacturer of the barrels for the Mann Accuracy Devices was the tactical operator that used this "oarlock sniper" in Laos. Ridiculous.


Hopefully potential bidders will see right through this and not pay $6,000 for a $600 Mann Accuracy Device.

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Dave91 said:

http://forums.gunboards.com/showthread.php?393385-Possible-Scam-Fakery-found
This guy operating a now shut down site called "The Mosin Corner" in SC sold several refurb 91/30's with fake Finnish SA stamps. Some really great internet detective work narrowed it down to him being the only possible culprit. The thread is a decent read if you're bored.

Edit: a lot of the links are dead, but you can still follow along pretty easily.

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I remember that one. Guy got called out and tried to pass the blame on but was busted. He also modeled his name and website after the reputable Mosin Crate which fooled a few people.

Lets not forget the Fake CMP Collector Grades at least as a warning to noobe collectors.

Here is a link to the MDS thread.
http://www.mdshooters.com/showthread.php?t=148260

This link goes to the CMP Forum:
http://forums.thecmp.org/showthread.php?t=130475

Fake US Krag Carbines 101...
This is to point out the obvious differences between true 1896 & 1898 carbines and cut rifles. Knowing these few tidbits can quickly exclude a fake, but is no guarantee they will prove a carbine to be real. I highly recommend against the purchase of an 1898 Carbine- most are fake and there is no way to prove they are real, other than a letter from The Springfield Research Service confirming it.
#1- A carbine's barrel band is held in place by a spring, not a screw. Carbines do not have sling swivels.
#2- The frond sight of a carbine is brazed in place, not banded in place.
#3- Carbines have a saddle ring; cut rifles do not.
#4- Carbine finger grooves are shorter than those on a rifle.
#5- A carbine's barrel is exactly 22"- measure it!!!

Look closely at the differences between the two pictured stocks. The red background is a true carbine: longer wrist, shorter finger grooves, has band spring, etc. There are many variants of cut rifles and fakes. It is VERY hard to modify a stock to match that of a real carbine.

MDS's most famous C&R fake...

http://www.mdshooters.com/showthread.php?t=176394&highlight=sniper

oh snap!

This was not advertised as a Krag carbine by here is another clue it had a cut down stock Look at the front of stock

Ouch! Pretty much twice what it's worth. Thanks to Squaregrouper for the very informative primer on Krag carbines. There are sooo many fakes out there. Most amateurish but a few that are very competent and you really need to know what to look out for. Big difference in value between a fake and the real deal!

Figured I'd make a worthy bump to this thread.

This gunbroker seller has had a couple "questionable" items worth mentioning. Found this gem on Gunboards. Fake round receiver M39. Original thread below.

http://forums.gunboards.com/showthread.php?465865-Turd-alert-fake-ROUND-M39-on-auction-site

Link to auction

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=547298855

Here's another with a horribly faked Totenkompf K98k. Those look like somebody put a picture of Frankenberry on it.

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=544432694

MilsurpDan said:

Figured I'd make a worthy bump to this thread.

This gunbroker seller has had a couple "questionable" items worth mentioning. Found this gem on Gunboards. Fake round receiver M39. Original thread below.

http://forums.gunboards.com/showthread.php?465865-Turd-alert-fake-ROUND-M39-on-auction-site

Link to auction

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=547298855

Here's another with a horribly faked Totenkompf K98k. Those look like somebody put a picture of Frankenberry on it.

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=544432694

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Sling Blade said:

What idiot put an SS stamp on a 1916 rifle???

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Interesting as they also threw the "Lazy S" death head on the stock as well. Seems there is an endless debate always going on Jan Stills Luger site about the Lazy S death head Lugers, which seem to only appear on Imperial/Weimar Lugers. Many of the examples also have the frankenberry look, but a lot of people seem to argue their legitimacy (whether they argue Freikorps, Nazi era reworks, etc.).

http://luger.gunboards.com/showthread.php?42871-Variations-Death-Head-Stampings

Sling Blade said:

What idiot put an SS stamp on a 1916 rifle???

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Interestingly enough, a lot of Gew 98's were converted to k98k standards. A lot were supposedly issued to SS troops since they weren't given priority over other units for weapons. I've seen a couple legit Totenkompf marks on Gew 98 reworks, but there is probably more fakes floating around now than legit ones ever made. I missed out on a legit Russian Capture one last year on GB since I didn't pay much attention because I thought it would go for a lot of cash. I was kicking myself when it only went for $500 or so.

That one is an example of a horrible fake though

Bump because I found a link to the original auction listing, see post number 26 for context:

https://www.rockislandauction.com/detail/63/3540/remington-arms-inc-1903-a3-rifle-3006Remington Arms Inc 1903 A3 Rifle 30-06

Unique U.S. Remington Model 1903A3 Bolt Action Rifle in Unusual "Oarlock Sniper" ConfigurationOriginally manufactured as a conventional bolt action military rifle circa World War II, this Remington has been subjected to a radical modification. The "RA FJA" inspected stock has been trimmed down...

There is also a mention of the "Oarlock Sniper Rifle" on the web site Alloutdoor:




Now see if this happens to resemble what the CMP was selling for $600 a few years ago. Funny the barrel maker Walker has the same name as mentioned as the "Sniper with the Oarlock Rifle" in the auction description. Rock Island was notified by CMP Forum members but went ahead with the listing they had written:




Be careful out there in C&R land.

Would the Springfield 87M "Garand Trainer Prototype" fit here?

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