If you were a museum curator ...

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  • Machodoc

    Old Guy
    Jun 27, 2012
    5,745
    Just South of Chuck County
    Back in the late '70s and early '80s, American shooters became aware that there was a handgun that was gaining unprecedented popularity among European military and police forces. The problem was, at that time, that the Czech-made CZ-75 couldn't be easily imported into the U.S. because Czechoslovakia was then under the sphere of the Soviet Union.

    The model then being made was the original CZ-75 ... now usually referred to as a "pre-B" CZ-75.

    Recognizing that there might be many potential markets for this handgun, Fratelli Tanfoglio of Italy sought, and received, a license to manufacture almost-exact copies of the Czech. handgun. The result was the TZ-75 ... the gun that I posted at the beginning of this thread. It was an all-steel pistol in 9mm (9x19), made to NATO specifications. The influence of the Browning Hi-Power on this design is unmistakable, but it's not a direct copy of the Hi-Power.

    Unlike most previous semi-autos, the gun was designed with more than just the optimal angle of the grip in mind. It was designed to fit snugly into the average male's hand in a way that pointing the arm would bring the point of aim automatically very close to where the shooter would want it to be--even before a sight pattern could be acquired.

    In addition to that, the gun provided the option of firing the first shot from either DA, or SA (in "cocked and locked" status). That was an unusual feature at the time.

    The Italian copy differed from the Czech CZ in that it had a combo safety and decocker mounted on the slide, rather than on the frame. Other than that unusual feature, the guns were otherwise very close to being exact copies that almost all of the parts were interchangeable. Like its Czech cousin, the TZ-75 had a slide that mounted on rails inside the frame, rather than on the outside, believed to increase the accuracy of the firearm.

    Tanfoglio's reputation for quality was such that they were sub-contracted by Israel to supply components for that nation's own CZ-75 pre-B copy, the Jericho, but Israeli law required the majority of the gun to be made and assembled in-country.

    The initial U.S. importer for this handgun was “Firearms Import and Export” (F.I.E.). I'll have to refine my dates, here, but sometime around 1984 or 1985 F.I.E. began importing this pistol. Reports seem to indicate that there may have been some minor quality control issues with the metallurgy of the early models, but by late in 1986, those were sorted out and the guns were equal to the CZ-75s in all respects--including having excellent trigger pull. (The gun I have was made in 1987). By 1988, Tanfoglio modified the pistol to a Model 88, moving the safety back to the frame, changing the shape of the hammer spur, and some other small mods, but parts remained generally interchangeable with the pre-B CZ-75.

    By 1990, F.I.E. was out of business. They were importers of many different pistols and shotguns--most of them cheap, and some cheaply made. Not many Americans gambled on the TZ-75 because it was an unknown, and even though it was reasonably priced, the rest of F.I.E.'s more conventional-looking pistols were cheaper. Based upon the other guns that F.I.E. sold, the early assumption was that the TZ-75 was probably of inferior quality. It absolutely was not!

    For a time (perhaps 10 years?), a company called EXCAM continued to import different models of the guns that stemmed from the TZ-75, but they too eventually went out of business.

    Enter a new company called European-American Arms (EAA) formed specifically to import the newer copies of the CZ-75 being produced at Tanfoglio. EAA continues to import a number of excellent handguns that are based upon the original CZ-75 design, and the EAA Witness has developed a strong following all its own. The company recently launched a series of pistols designed specifically for women--the Pavona. It, too, is based largely upon the original CZ-75.

    It is because of it's interesting configuration, history relating to a Soviet-bloc design unavailable in the U.S. at the time (the CZ-75 was introduced to the U.S. by the TZ-75), and the role that it played in the ultimate development of the now very popular EAA Corp, that I think these guns deserve to be classified as curios.

    [Throughout this account I incorrectly refer to the Czech gun as a "CZ" when it should be properly called a Vz. 75. Americans have simply adopted that designation, and CZ America doesn't try to fight about it anymore, so I won't either.]
     

    JHE1956

    Active Member
    Apr 16, 2013
    751
    Annapolis
    Walther P4, Walther's "perfection" of the P38 line, made in limited numbers for German police and border guards in the 70s.
     
    Jul 1, 2012
    5,736
    I'd like to see the Walther and especially Manurhin P4 / P-IV get classified C&R.
    Limited, short production, the Manurhin particularly significant (225 made) as a police-only issue,
    provided the last gasp of the P.38 lineage for all intents and purposes.

    Walther P4, Walther's "perfection" of the P38 line, made in limited numbers for German police and border guards in the 70s.

    Got you covered :)

    These are still pretty reasonable if you can find one, but most have the "BMI" marking milled out of the slide which is kind of ugly.
    Some day in the not-so-distant future they will be very desirable/expensive.
     

    CasualObserver

    Who Observes the Observer
    Apr 27, 2012
    1,266
    Maryland Born Now in Vermont
    Sorry to say, I wonder if any of these good ideas would ever have a chance if one of us suddenly became a museum curator. When was the last time the ATF published an updated list? 2010 I believe unless I've missed one. I've read that they might issue letters for new additions (read somewhere that that is what happened for the P1/P38 post war models, but never seen it). And I've seen letters clarifying that certain 1903 Springfield rifles qualify as C&R still after being rebuilt, but no new ATF Curios or Relics (C&R) List (ATF P 5300.11) releases in 5 years. Any one able to shed any light on what the ATF is up too? Or does this qualify as a thread hijack and should be split off on its own....
     
    Jul 1, 2012
    5,736
    From what I understand they've stopped doing the "exceptions".
    The P1/P38 letter is an urban legend I'm afraid. No one has actually seen it.
    ATF has stated to several collectors that these are not C&R unless by age.
     

    Machodoc

    Old Guy
    Jun 27, 2012
    5,745
    Just South of Chuck County
    I'm reviving this thread because the Croatian PHP is not, according to BATFE, a curio or relic. On the other hand, if you accept the standard definition of curio to be, "a rare, unusual, or intriguing object", this is fairly rare, most unusual, and I find it to be rather intriguing. Others seem to agree with me, because they listed the PHP as their candidate for C&R via museum letter.

    That said, does anyone here have one? I just got one in that was advertised at auction as not having an import mark. When it came in, there was indeed an import mark, but it was very small, only partially stamped, and took me awhile with a magnifying glass to determine that it was a (partial and small) SARCO import mark. I don't think the guy who sold it realized that's what it was.

    In any case, I'd like to compare notes about finish, etc., on these. Were they blued? Were they coated, along the lines of a CZ-82? Not having actually held another of these, I don't know if mine's original finish, or if someone did a really nice cerakote job on it, or what.
     
    Jul 1, 2012
    5,736
    Are these even on the approved MD handgun roster? **
    I was looking into buying the big brother (MV-17) at one point and couldn't find it, gave up.
    From what I understand these were of varying quality so it's possible finish was different even from the factory, but I thought they were blued.

    http://www.southernohiogun.com/handguns/surplus-handguns/php-mv-9-9mm-pistol.html

    They are definitely a solid candidate for C&R - short & limited production, parts difficult to find :) etc.

    So have you shot it yet?


    ** for those of us subject to the stupidity herein
     

    Machodoc

    Old Guy
    Jun 27, 2012
    5,745
    Just South of Chuck County
    Are these even on the approved MD handgun roster?

    I doubt it, because they have high-capacity mags, to begin with. It's sad because I could probably stand somewhere near where I live, and see a place close to where you live ... across the Potomac ... but the difference in 2A freedoms is like night and day.

    Haven't shot it yet. Just got it out of FFL prison (it's not C&R) yesterday.
     
    Jul 1, 2012
    5,736
    Less than 20 rounds, and it would (could) have been approved back in the day.
    But so obscure maybe nobody bothered.
    I'd like to have one of the bigguns to go with the P38
     

    Machodoc

    Old Guy
    Jun 27, 2012
    5,745
    Just South of Chuck County
    Here are some pics of the one that I just got. I don't think the fellow who sold it to me, advertising it as "No Import Mark" was intentionally trying to mislead anyone. It's one hell of a lot better than the billboards on the ones brought in more recently, plus there's not a second serial number engraved. I'm OK with it, overall.

    I think this is the smallest Imp. mark I've ever seen, and only part of the mark got applied. In a closeup photo, you can tell that there's something there, but even with my magnifier it took several minutes for me to figure out that it says "Sarco" on it. A quick googleation revealed that Sarco did bring some in several years ago -- and sold them for $35.00 each! Had we only known ....
     

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    Last edited:

    lee2

    Banned
    BANNED!!!
    Oct 8, 2007
    19,012
    Here are some pics of the one that I just got. I don't think the fellow who sold it to me, advertising it as "No Import Mark" was intentionally trying to mislead anyone. It's one hell of a lot better than the billboards on the ones brought in more recently, plus there's not a second serial number engraved. I'm OK with it, overall.

    I think this is the smallest Imp. mark I've ever seen, and only part of the mark got applied. In a closeup photo, you can tell that there's something there, but even with my magnifier it took several minutes for me to figure out that it says "Sarco" on it. A quick googleation revealed that Sarco did bring some in several years ago -- and sold them for $35.00 each! Had we only known ....

    are you a MD resident?
     

    K31

    "Part of that Ultra MAGA Crowd"
    MDS Supporter
    Jan 15, 2006
    35,678
    AA county
    The HK P7.

    They would have a hard time saying that it is not an usual design.
     

    Jimbob2.0

    Ultimate Member
    Feb 20, 2008
    16,600
    CZ75, particularly Pre-B
    I agree with the above, a fair argument could be made for early Glocks.
    Sig 22X on German frames
    Rossi 62/72 series

    Realistically.................

    Bulgarian Makarov
    FEG pistols made before 1980.
    Star and Star B pistols
    Colt Peacekeeper (colt union strike was a big deal back then). If you can live with the finish (parkerized) they were fine guns.
     

    lee2

    Banned
    BANNED!!!
    Oct 8, 2007
    19,012
    Nope. My family dates back to the mid 1600s in Maryland, but I crossed the river to freedom.

    freedom is a wonderful thing. maybe these will be sold in Md someday. i'd like to have one as a curiosity. i heard they're a pain in the butt to take down for cleaning though.
     

    Machodoc

    Old Guy
    Jun 27, 2012
    5,745
    Just South of Chuck County
    freedom is a wonderful thing. maybe these will be sold in Md someday. i'd like to have one as a curiosity. i heard they're a pain in the butt to take down for cleaning though.

    They're definitely different, but their like some of those "blacksmith's puzzles" that are sold in gift shops ... once you've done it correctly a couple of times, it gets to be much easier. Removing and disassembling a Krag bolt is another brain twister the first time you do it ... and field stripping an Astra. A little practice, and scrambling after parts, and you figure it out.
     

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