Question #1,028

I just got a H&R Single Shot rifle in 35 Whelen. I also bought a box of Hornady Superformance ammo in 200 gr. SP. I got 63 pieces of brass along with it and a RCBS Sizing die. The factory ammo shot pretty good in the rifle. I put a cheap red dot on it and can hit near the bulls-eye at 50 yards. I tried to fire some handloads but none of them would fire. The primer had a smaller dent in it than the factory brass had. I only had 200 gr. Hornady round nose bullets and that's what I used in the handloads. The factory ammo has Hornady SP (spire point) bullets.

I asked a guy at a gun store what he thought about it and he thought that the sizing die was adjusted wrong and was making the shoulder of the case too short. The brass looks the same as the factory brass to me.

I put a couple of empty cases with the primers still in them in the rifle and the primers ignited easily.

I think it's the round nose bullets that are keeping the primers from going off and I bought a box of 200 gr. Hornady FTX bullets to try. Couldn't find 200 gr. SP bullets. I'm going to try them this weekend.

Thoughts..opinions?

Ignore my previous reply.

Check the dimensions per the SAAMI specifications, see page 125:
https://saami.org/wp-content/upload...99.4-CFR-Approved-2015-12-14-Posting-Copy.pdf

I think you got good advice from the store. The bullet might make the OAL longer which would move the case further to the rear. Assuming it's hitting the lands which may not be what you want either. If it's seated deeper (not in contact with the lands) then it would have no effect on the primer strike.

It sounds like you don't have any measuring tools, "The brass looks the same as the factory brass to me. " You need a set of calipers at the very least to do reloading.

There is a good chance you have increased the headspace during sizing. Since you are using the brass in a single shot, you do not need to fully size the case. All you need to do is adjust the die until it just touches the shoulder of the case. The way to do this is to put a flame around the shoulder and neck of a lubed case with a lighter, propane match or something like that, enough to make it black with soot. Adjust the die until it is about a nickles distance from the shell holder. Run the case into the die and see where the mark stops. Adjust the die down until it just contacts the soot on the shoulder. This will give you the perfect headspace for that gun.

Good luck.

K31 said:

I think you got good advice from the store. The bullet might make the OAL longer which would move the case further to the rear. Assuming it's hitting the lands which may not be what you want either. If it's seated deeper (not in contact with the lands) then it would have no effect on the primer strike.

It sounds like you don't have any measuring tools, "The brass looks the same as the factory brass to me. " You need a set of calipers at the very least to do reloading.

Click to expand...

If the primers ignited without bullets then that says that the brass case is not the problem or am I wrong?

Yeah, I measured the cases with a caliper and they're the same.

I made some rounds with Hornady FTX bullets which are like the SP bullets. I'll try them tomorrow and report what happens.

Striper69 said:

If the primers ignited without bullets then that says that the brass case is not the problem or am I wrong?

Click to expand...

I can't explain that one if I've parsed the double negative right.

Assuming the cases were sized and primed the same way as the batch with the light primer strikes.

Seems like more than one thing going on, hence why I deleted my post. Without seeing rifle and reloading process I'm too 'unenlightened' to accurately reply..

I think I may have a similar problem on a different platform. If I am understanding correctly having a too long COL especially with a lead bullet touching the lands (round is head spacing off the lands not the correct POC of the round) may create a cushion effect when the firing pin hits the primer ? as the lead is so soft it allows the round to move forward just enough to rob the firing pin of enough energy to not detonate the primer ? I have been fighting with cast bullet .30 carbine loads forever and this may be the culprit. Rifle will fire primed brass all day long. Same case loaded with a lead bullet = squat

I load my lead bullets long to engage the rifling on all my rifles and they all shoot fine. Long COAL is not going to cause light firing pin strikes. It may cause a failure to feed but not light strikes.

Atlasarmory said:

I think I may have a similar problem on a different platform. If I am understanding correctly having a too long COL especially with a lead bullet touching the lands (round is head spacing off the lands not the correct POC of the round) may create a cushion effect when the firing pin hits the primer ? as the lead is so soft it allows the round to move forward just enough to rob the firing pin of enough energy to not detonate the primer ? I have been fighting with cast bullet .30 carbine loads forever and this may be the culprit. Rifle will fire primed brass all day long. Same case loaded with a lead bullet = squat

Click to expand...

I thought of a scenario like this except rather than the bullet going further into the lands, the bullet was being seated deeper by the primer strike.

I’m new to reloading but yes a caliper is key. My question is deprime a spent case you knew worked (this brass should be fireformed to the chamber, would only require neck sizing to reload) then just seat a primer and see if it fires (no bullet or powder) I know some primers are harder than others so it may not be striking it hard enough.

(Edit just reread your post and you say primers fire)
Also make sure you follow a reloading book, it’s kinda like a cook book when you deviate from the recipe things don’t work right and could be dangerous.

I strongly recommend you have a case gauge for every caliber you reload and check EVERY cartridge you load.

Striper69 said:

I just got a H&R Single Shot rifle in 35 Whelen. I also bought a box of Hornady Superformance ammo in 200 gr. SP. I got 63 pieces of brass along with it and a RCBS Sizing die. The factory ammo shot pretty good in the rifle. I put a cheap red dot on it and can hit near the bulls-eye at 50 yards. I tried to fire some handloads but none of them would fire. The primer had a smaller dent in it than the factory brass had. I only had 200 gr. Hornady round nose bullets and that's what I used in the handloads. The factory ammo has Hornady SP (spire point) bullets.

I asked a guy at a gun store what he thought about it and he thought that the sizing die was adjusted wrong and was making the shoulder of the case too short. The brass looks the same as the factory brass to me.

I put a couple of empty cases with the primers still in them in the rifle and the primers ignited easily.

I think it's the round nose bullets that are keeping the primers from going off and I bought a box of 200 gr. Hornady FTX bullets to try. Couldn't find 200 gr. SP bullets. I'm going to try them this weekend.

Thoughts..opinions?

Click to expand...

Round nose bullets keeping primers from going off is ridiculous.
How are you setting up your sizing die. I’m betting your bumping the shoulder to far. Your eye will not see a couple thousands. Some break action guns are notorious for head space issues.

Ahh, the old .35 Whelen...my very first custom rifle in one of my favorite hunting cartridges. In the early '70s, I rebarreled my Mauser '98 for .35 Whelen, and later had Doug Bellm rebore a brand new M700 BDL in .30-06 to .35 Whelen as well. Bought the 'Classic' M700 when it came out in .35 Whelen too, so have had three in this caliber.

Mike3888 said:

Round nose bullets keeping primers from going off is ridiculous.
How are you setting up your sizing die. I’m betting your bumping the shoulder to far. Your eye will not see a couple thousands. Some break action guns are notorious for head space issues.

Click to expand...

This ^ ^ ^

If anything, the round nose bullet can aid in ignition in your already too-short cases, IF it can be loaded to contact the rifling and hold the case head back against the bolt. If you choose to do this, reduce your powder charges to avoid pressure spikes from touching the lands. This method will allow you to salvage those cases that are already sized too short, or you can neck them up and back down to form a secondary shoulder in the correct location, as described below.

Starting with fired brass, using the die manufacturer's generic setup instructions WILL lead to minimum length ammo, sometimes even below SAAMI specs. Minimum/sub-minimum length ammo, combined with a maximum/beyond-maximum length chamber, sets up a long-to-excessive headspace condition that can lead to misfires and case head separations.

A couple other things can set up this excessive headspace issue you are facing.

One is that the shoulder can be driven back while seating the bullet, often caused by not properly chamfering the inside of the case neck, and another is excessive crimping pressure can also set the shoulder back. It sounds like one and/or the other is at least contributing to your issue if the rifle will fire primed cases and not loaded ammo.

Be sure to chamfer the inside of your case neck to allow easy bullet seating and DO NOT CRIMP. You almost never really need a crimp anyway, although most dies will provide one if adjusted to do so. For a single shot, you definitely do not need a crimp, which is just another variable to introduce and potentially go awry, especially if your cases are not perfectly trimmed each time.

To correct headspace on already too short brass, you can form a secondary shoulder:
You can buy a replacement expander ball for your resizing die, but for a .375 and use that expand the case neck by running your brass part way up into the die, just enough to pass over the expander ball. Be sure to lube the case neck inside. This will prevent chambering by making the neck too large to enter that portion of the chamber. Then replace the .375 expander with the correct .358 expander and back your die away from the shellholder a full turn on the lock nut.

When you run the case up into the die, you will see the neck has been sized back down to .35 and will partially enter the chamber. Advance your die toward the shellholder about 1/8th turn at a time until the brass will just fit and barely allow the rifle to close on it.

Now, lock you die's lock ring in place and consider that die to be adjusted for YOUR RIFLE, not some 'one size fits most' adjustment you'd get following generic setup instructions.

The key to this is that the die maker wants the cartridge case small enough to fit ANY rifle, while you really need it to fit YOUR rifle.

The other, more obscure, issue one encounters with this cartridge is that it was a popular and widely used wildcat for a VERY long time, with many minor chamber variations along the way. When Remington 'legitimized' the cartridge, they chose their own specific dimensions to submit to SAAMI, while many rifles made prior to this were not exactly the same. This is one reason dies are adjustable...

More info and better overview here: http://www.shell-central.com/Brass_Prep1.html

Atlasarmory said:

I think I may have a similar problem on a different platform. If I am understanding correctly having a too long COL especially with a lead bullet touching the lands (round is head spacing off the lands not the correct POC of the round) may create a cushion effect when the firing pin hits the primer ? as the lead is so soft it allows the round to move forward just enough to rob the firing pin of enough energy to not detonate the primer ? I have been fighting with cast bullet .30 carbine loads forever and this may be the culprit. Rifle will fire primed brass all day long. Same case loaded with a lead bullet = squat

Click to expand...

The bullet does NOT affect ignition IF the case is properly headspaced, and never in a negative way anyhow. The case shoulder bears all resistance to forward movement when the primer is struck. In fact, allowing the bullet to touch the rifling can be a bail-out maneuver for excessively sized brass.

If your rifle fires primed brass OK, then something you're doing after the sizing/priming is clearly causing the misfire issue. Bad chamfer job... excessive crimp...see my post above.

ETA: Meant to say that the carbine is a slightly tapered case that headspaces on the case mouth. You may be applying too much crimp, thus turning the case mouth in and preventing the square edge of the case mouth from engaging the end of the chamber.

35 Whelen is just a spooky round. I have had two friends get 35 Whelens and eventually pawn them due to there always being one issue after another when it comes to cases, ignitions, wandering zeros, or splitting brass. It's sad, because it seems like a nice alternative to the 9.3x62.

Surt said:

35 Whelen is just a spooky round.

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LOL Spooky to deer maybe...

I have had two friends get 35 Whelens and eventually pawn them due to there always being one issue after another when it comes to cases, ignitions, wandering zeros, or splitting brass. It's sad, because it seems like a nice alternative to the 9.3x62.

Click to expand...

Nothing wrong with the .35 Whelen, honest...

It is sensitive to incorrect die adjustment, which seems pretty common. I think that is due to the many chamber variations vs die maker's generic instructions. New factory ammo in an old rifle can be problematic, because the older rifle may not meet the relatively new SAAMI specs.

Properly fitting ammo (SAAMI ammo in an SAAMI chamber) or a **correctly** adjusted sizing die and you won't see any more issues with this cartridge than any other.

The shoulder area is relatively small, and some folks get worried about that, but there is also a .375 Whelen with an even smaller shoulder area that works well when properly managed. Neither one is as bad as the formerly popular .35 Remington...

Before the factory loads were available, cases were typically necked up .30-06s. Improper forming leads to headspace issues and because the .30 cases were blown out to .35, neck splits with un-annealed brass were common. Many people just 'fireform' a .30-06 in a .35W chamber, but this will shorten the headspace and cause ignition and/or other headspace issues. The best way to form them was to anneal the brass and pass them over a .338 ball, then a .358 ball with the properly adjusted (for THAT rifle) die.

Wandering zero is always a rifle (bedding) or faulty scope problem, not an cartridge problem.

E.Shell said:

LOL Spooky to deer maybe...

Nothing wrong with the .35 Whelen, honest...

It is sensitive to incorrect die adjustment, which seems pretty common. I think that is due to the many chamber variations vs die maker's generic instructions. New factory ammo in an old rifle can be problematic, because the older rifle may not meet the relatively new SAAMI specs.

Properly fitting ammo (SAAMI ammo in an SAAMI chamber) or a **correctly** adjusted sizing die and you won't see any more issues with this cartridge than any other.

The shoulder area is relatively small, and some folks get worried about that, but there is also a .375 Whelen with an even smaller shoulder area that works well when properly managed. Neither one is as bad as the formerly popular .35 Remington...

Before the factory loads were available, cases were typically necked up .30-06s. Improper forming leads to headspace issues and because the .30 cases were blown out to .35, neck splits with un-annealed brass were common. Many people just 'fireform' a .30-06 in a .35W chamber, but this will shorten the headspace and cause ignition and/or other headspace issues. The best way to form them was to anneal the brass and pass them over a .338 ball, then a .358 ball with the properly adjusted (for THAT rifle) die.

Wandering zero is always a rifle (bedding) or faulty scope problem, not an cartridge problem.

Click to expand...

I've never had a single problem reloading 35 Rem in my Marlin 336.

E.Shell said:

The bullet does NOT affect ignition IF the case is properly headspaced, and never in a negative way anyhow. The case shoulder bears all resistance to forward movement when the primer is struck. In fact, allowing the bullet to touch the rifling can be a bail-out maneuver for excessively sized brass.

If your rifle fires primed brass OK, then something you're doing after the sizing/priming is clearly causing the misfire issue. Bad chamfer job... excessive crimp...see my post above.

ETA: Meant to say that the carbine is a slightly tapered case that headspaces on the case mouth. You may be applying too much crimp, thus turning the case mouth in and preventing the square edge of the case mouth from engaging the end of the chamber.

Click to expand...

I may be crimping the cases too much. I will try to correct that.