Lethal Force Outside the Home

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  • SCDoGo

    Member
    Dec 6, 2014
    84
    Gomen nasai. Wataski wa begoshi desu :D

    It took me way longer to figure this out than it should have. Pulled out the dictionary and everything. Once I noticed who said it, I had a good clue to go off of.

    "Watashi wa bengoshi desu" or "watakushi" if you want to be very formal.

    Now it should be resume ready :)
     

    PO2012

    Active Member
    Oct 24, 2013
    815
    If you have any other choice take it. Lethal force is literally the last option.

    .

    My advice to any gun owner is that if you're going to purchase a firearm you should also purchase and train with a less lethal weapon as well. Examples would include telescoping batons (i.e. the ASP or Monadnock), pepper spray and, of course, the Taser. Before buying or carrying any of these products you should find out if they're legal where you live and/or work and you should understand how they operate and what their limitations are. You should also take into consideration your physical condition. I would not suggest that asthmatics or those suffering from COPD carry pepper spray nor would I counsel someone with a heart condition to carry a Taser.

    Having to use force to defend yourself is generally a rare occurrence unless you work in a field that requires you to eject, restrain or arrest hostile people. The vast majority of self defense situations are not going to rise to the level where you would be justified in drawing, much less discharging, a firearm. It's important that you have an intermediate weapon available to you for those situations where you are being assaulted or threatened with assault and deadly physical force is not justified. Not only does the use of such an intermediate weapon give you the opportunity to avoid using deadly physical force in some instances but it will be of great help to you in any legal proceeding should you be forced to discharge a firearm. Your case for self defense is much stronger if you used an intermediate weapon on your attacker and he or she kept coming necessitating the use of a firearm versus shooting your opponent straight away.

    Many people suffer from the misconception that pepper spray, tasers and batons are ineffective. Nothing could be further from the truth. Used properly they will stop most threats. I've pepper sprayed people who were psychotic, high on drugs, mission oriented etc and every single of one them was incapacitated. By that same token, nothing gets a violent felon's attention quicker than laying into them with a nightstick. Your results may vary, I'm simply speaking of my own experiences.

    The bottom line is this: pepper spray is cheap, batons are modestly priced and a Taser Model C-2 can be had for the price of a used revolver. Bail and lawyer fees, however, are universally expensive unless one is on good terms with a relative who happens to be a bondsman or an attorney. If you know that a fight is coming, come prepared. I had two different folks call 911 this week back to back because they caught burglars in their homes, subdued them and then held them until we arrived. This was very pleasing for me and not so pleasing for those now facing felony charges. Citizen participation is good. All I ask is that you be informed and prepared. If you can afford a Sig Sauer, you can afford to drop $20 on a can of pepper spray. Chances are you'll end up using the latter a lot more than the former. I know I have and I work in area that often resembles a demilitarized zone.
     

    esqappellate

    President, MSI
    Feb 12, 2012
    7,407
    It took me way longer to figure this out than it should have. Pulled out the dictionary and everything. Once I noticed who said it, I had a good clue to go off of.

    "Watashi wa bengoshi desu" or "watakushi" if you want to be very formal.

    Now it should be resume ready :)
    Yep, the speaker's identity was a giveaway. And you caught my typo in bengoshi!! It would be harder if I wrote in Kanji 丁寧語 [ていねいご] :lol:
     

    esqappellate

    President, MSI
    Feb 12, 2012
    7,407
    My advice to any gun owner is that if you're going to purchase a firearm you should also purchase and train with a less lethal weapon as well. Examples would include telescoping batons (i.e. the ASP or Monadnock), pepper spray and, of course, the Taser. Before buying or carrying any of these products you should find out if they're legal where you live and/or work and you should understand how they operate and what their limitations are. You should also take into consideration your physical condition. I would not suggest that asthmatics or those suffering from COPD carry pepper spray nor would I counsel someone with a heart condition to carry a Taser.

    Having to use force to defend yourself is generally a rare occurrence unless you work in a field that requires you to eject, restrain or arrest hostile people. The vast majority of self defense situations are not going to rise to the level where you would be justified in drawing, much less discharging, a firearm. It's important that you have an intermediate weapon available to you for those situations where you are being assaulted or threatened with assault and deadly physical force is not justified. Not only does the use of such an intermediate weapon give you the opportunity to avoid using deadly physical force in some instances but it will be of great help to you in any legal proceeding should you be forced to discharge a firearm. Your case for self defense is much stronger if you used an intermediate weapon on your attacker and he or she kept coming necessitating the use of a firearm versus shooting your opponent straight away.

    Many people suffer from the misconception that pepper spray, tasers and batons are ineffective. Nothing could be further from the truth. Used properly they will stop most threats. I've pepper sprayed people who were psychotic, high on drugs, mission oriented etc and every single of one them was incapacitated. By that same token, nothing gets a violent felon's attention quicker than laying into them with a nightstick. Your results may vary, I'm simply speaking of my own experiences.

    The bottom line is this: pepper spray is cheap, batons are modestly priced and a Taser Model C-2 can be had for the price of a used revolver. Bail and lawyer fees, however, are universally expensive unless one is on good terms with a relative who happens to be a bondsman or an attorney. If you know that a fight is coming, come prepared. I had two different folks call 911 this week back to back because they caught burglars in their homes, subdued them and then held them until we arrived. This was very pleasing for me and not so pleasing for those now facing felony charges. Citizen participation is good. All I ask is that you be informed and prepared. If you can afford a Sig Sauer, you can afford to drop $20 on a can of pepper spray. Chances are you'll end up using the latter a lot more than the former. I know I have and I work in area that often resembles a demilitarized zone.

    This ^^^^ is all *excellent* legal advice. Not to mention *excellent* self-defense advice. Thanks for jumping in... The problem is that a baton may be construed to be a prohibited weapon in DC:

    District of Columbia - § 22-4514. Possession of certain dangerous weapons prohibited; exceptions.

    (a) No person shall within the District of Columbia possess any machine gun, sawed-off shotgun, or any instrument or weapon of the kind commonly known as a blackjack, slungshot, sand club, sandbag, switchblade knife, or metal knuckles, nor any instrument, attachment, or appliance for causing the firing of any firearm to be silent or intended to lessen or muffle the noise of the firing of any firearms; provided, however, that machine guns, or sawed-off shotguns, and blackjacks may be possessed by the members of the Army, Navy, Air Force, or Marine Corps of the United States, the National Guard, or Organized Reserves when on duty, the Post Office Department or its employees when on duty, marshals, sheriffs, prison or jail wardens, or their deputies, policemen, or other duly-appointed law enforcement officers, including any designated civilian employee of the Metropolitan Police Department, or officers or employees of the United States duly authorized to carry such weapons, banking institutions, public carriers who are engaged in the business of transporting mail, money, securities, or other valuables, wholesale dealers and retail dealers licensed under § 22-4510.

    (b) No person shall within the District of Columbia possess, with intent to use unlawfully against another, an imitation pistol, or a dagger, dirk, razor, stiletto, or knife with a blade longer than 3 inches, or other dangerous weapon.

    Pepper sprays are also regulated by DC ST § 7-2502.13:
    (a) Notwithstanding the provisions of § 7-2501.01(7)(C), a person 18 years of age or older may possess and use a self-defense spray in the exercise of reasonable force in defense of the person or the person's property only if it is propelled from an aerosol container, labeled with or accompanied by clearly written instructions as to its use, and dated to indicate its anticipated useful life.

    Under Section§ 7-2502.14, a person must register self-defense sprays:


    (a) A person 18 years of age or older must register the self-defense spray at the time of purchase by completing a standard registration form.


    (b) The vendor must forward the registration form to the Metropolitan Police Department.


    (b) No person shall possess a self-defense spray which is of a type other than that specified in §§ 7-2502.12 to 7-2502.14."


    For Maryland, batons and pepper sprays are classified as weapons and regulated by MD Code, Criminal Law, § 4-101. Attached.
     

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    fidelity

    piled higher and deeper
    MDS Supporter
    Aug 15, 2012
    22,400
    Frederick County
    This ^^^^ is all *excellent* legal advice. Not to mention *excellent* self-defense advice. Thanks for jumping in...

    Just to amplify your endorsement of PO2012's post, as you know, Andrew Branca said something similar in his law of self defense lecture and mentioned that he also carries pepper spray where legally permitted and also sought training for its use.
     

    esqappellate

    President, MSI
    Feb 12, 2012
    7,407
    Just to amplify your endorsement of PO2012's post, as you know, Andrew Branca said something similar in his law of self defense lecture and mentioned that he also carries pepper spray where legally permitted and also sought training for its use.

    right you are about Andrew. The trouble is the "legally permitted" part. For those with a MD permit, you should know that the permit gives you an exemption from the prohibitions imposed by the statute 4-101. See 4-101(b)(3) (stating that this section does not apply to"(3) a holder of a permit to carry a handgun issued under Title 5, Subtitle 3 of the Public Safety Article"). So, pepper spray (and other such weapons) are an option for those few folks. Check local laws and ordinances.

    By all means get some training. Here are some useful hints given to LEOs:

    OC spray is not infallible; it does not stop all people. Also, some subjects take longer to feel the effects. An attacker can still grab, strike, or cause other physical damage to you after being sprayed. The initial contingency plan is to retreat to create space between you and the person you sprayed. There are many times when giving up ground makes good sense, and as you back up from the subject, you have a few moments to gather your thoughts and consider the next move. Retreating also allows officers to radio for backup, get a barrier between them and the subject, and, if authorized, use an elevated type of force.


    How to hold the canister:
    The canister must be held upright in order to propel the OC chemical and not just the propellant. Ensure that your thumb (or index fi nger, depending on your choice) is actually on the actuator button and not on the protective safety lid in a moment of stress.
    Distance considerations:
    Shoot at a minimum of 3 feet and a maximum of 10-12 feet.
    How long to spray:
    Spray in quick, small bursts, lasting a second or two are best.
    If the subject keeps coming at you:
    Spray, then back up a few steps if the subject keeps coming at you. Repeat this procedure until the subject is incapacitated. If you reach your other hand out to push him or her off, make sure you do not hit your outstretched arm with the spray.
    Target placement:
    Aim for the eyes. Avoid, if possible, direct contact with the mouth. Use a vertical spray arc for one subject and a horizontal spray arc for two or more subjects.
     

    PO2012

    Active Member
    Oct 24, 2013
    815
    right you are about Andrew. The trouble is the "legally permitted" part. For those with a MD permit, you should know that the permit gives you an exemption from the prohibitions imposed by the statute 4-101. See 4-101(b)(3) (stating that this section does not apply to"(3) a holder of a permit to carry a handgun issued under Title 5, Subtitle 3 of the Public Safety Article"). So, pepper spray (and other such weapons) are an option for those few folks. Check local laws and ordinances.

    I am not aware of anything in the state statutes which prohibits the carrying of pepper mace in general, either openly or concealed, provided that the person carrying the pepper mace is: a) an adult and b) isn't carrying the pepper mace with the intent to unlawfully use same against another.

    In reference to 4-101, the charging language manual used by District Court Commissioners specifically states the following in regards to pepper mace:

    "NOTE: Carrying or wearing chemical mace, pepper mace, or a tear gas device concealed is not made illegal by this section if the defendant is an adult. Carrying such a device openly with intent to injure is charged under CR 4-101. The appropriate choices are provided in the wording below."

    The direction given by my agency is that we do not arrest adults carrying pepper mace, whether openly or concealed, unless they commit, attempt to commit or threaten the commission of a crime of violence using said pepper mace.

    Obviously local ordinances may vary.
     

    esqappellate

    President, MSI
    Feb 12, 2012
    7,407
    I am not aware of anything in the state statutes which prohibits the carrying of pepper mace in general, either openly or concealed, provided that the person carrying the pepper mace is: a) an adult and b) isn't carrying the pepper mace with the intent to unlawfully use same against another.

    In reference to 4-101, the charging language manual used by District Court Commissioners specifically states the following in regards to pepper mace:

    "NOTE: Carrying or wearing chemical mace, pepper mace, or a tear gas device concealed is not made illegal by this section if the defendant is an adult. Carrying such a device openly with intent to injure is charged under CR 4-101. The appropriate choices are provided in the wording below."

    The direction given by my agency is that we do not arrest adults carrying pepper mace, whether openly or concealed, unless they commit, attempt to commit or threaten the commission of a crime of violence using said pepper mace.

    Obviously local ordinances may vary.

    That is right as a rule but subject to exceptions and it is open to interpretation at the scene. (c)(1) bans concealed carry of "dangerous weapon of any kind" but defines weapon as "“Weapon” includes a dirk knife, bowie knife, switchblade knife, star knife, sandclub, metal knuckles, razor, and nunchaku." That list, while not including pepper spray, does not purport to be all inclusive (it could be, for example, construed to include a baton as a species of "sandclub"). See also Brooks v. State, 314 Md. 585, 600, 552 A.2d 872 (1989) (explaining the definition of "dangerous weapon). And, the case law indicates that pepper spray *can* be a dangerous weapon. Handy v. State, 357 Md. 685, 745 A.2d 1107 Md.,2000. That case also indicates that " the General Assembly did not want to make it illegal for citizens to protect themselves from criminals by wearing or carrying mace, tear gas, or pepper spray in a concealed fashion. They did, however, want to prevent criminals, including robbers, from using such weapons in an open manner with intent to injure their victims."). Id at 704 (Construing prior codification of 4-101). So, if you carry pepper spray, you will have to convince the officer that you were doing so for a proper purpose, which is always a judgment call. I mean, how does the LEO know necessarily whether your purpose is self defense as opposed to use as a criminal? The statute does not say that the person has to actually use the pepper spray wrongfully -- only possess the wrongful *intent*. See (c)(2) ("A person may not wear or carry a dangerous weapon, chemical mace, pepper mace, or a tear gas device openly with the intent or purpose of injuring an individual in an unlawful manner") And, of course, there is always the possibility, however remote, that the LEO may be having a bad day and an arrest alone can really screw folks up (it would for me). Better to have the permit and have the complete exemption as a matter of statutory language; that takes it completely out any gray area.
     
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