1911s are “obsolete.”

Boats · Mar 10, 2019

CBo said:
yes, the 1911 is obsolete as in the style is no longer current, but only based on the fact that newer pistols generally tend to have updated safety mechanisms .

Do tell: what pistol has more safeties than a series 80 1911?

Because it has: a grip safety, thumb safety, firing pin safety, and half-cock "safety". AND you don't have to pull the trigger to field strip it.

I am genuinely curious what modern pistol is MORE safe than a 1911. (Hint: just because Glock markets a "safe-action pistol" doesnt mean it is actually safe)

Pinecone · Mar 11, 2019

PorP said:
They're pre-85, they're still some out there and you never know who has the license....

Aaaand he did say the #1 Browning design....

Guess I got a little excited for no reason.

Who designed the Ma Deuce???

Oh yeah, JMB did.

tpe187 · Mar 13, 2019

I think Larry Vickers and Ken Hackathorn have said it best. The M1911 is an "enthusiast" weapon, meaning you need to be mechanically inclined and prone to conducting maintenance. It was designed at a time when labor was cheap and machining expensive. The inverse is true now. And for all those who say my 1911 has fired x million rounds, I guarantee that most of that was ball/fmj ammo that the pistol was designed for unless you have a custom/semi custom that cost above $1K. In military pistols that must adhere to fmj/ball, bigger is better as long as you can hit with it. Ending a fight is simple, only hits to the central nervous system or rapid blood loss count. You must be able to hit what you are aiming at and the bullet must penetrate/cause enough damage. The simple fact is that most people can shoot a 9mm better than a .45 and with a 9mm they have more opportunities to connect with one of those shots. I have been an Army Infantryman for 25 years and have trained with various professionals and tens of thousands of rounds. If walking into combat tomorrow and my choices were a modern striker fired pistol or a 1911, I would eliminate the 1911 first. Now if moving to modern carry and the ability to use HP ammunition, then it is even more in favor of a modern design in 9mm. My personal carry guns are a S&W Shield in 9mm or a Glock 19 3rd Gen using Federal 147gr HST.

Pinecone · Mar 13, 2019

tpe187 said:
And for all those who say my 1911 has fired x million rounds, I guarantee that most of that was ball/fmj ammo that the pistol was designed for unless you have a custom/semi custom that cost above $1K. In military pistols that must adhere to fmj/ball, bigger is better as long as you can hit with it. Ending a fight is simple, only hits to the central nervous system or rapid blood loss count. You must be able to hit what you are aiming at and the bullet must penetrate/cause enough damage. The simple fact is that most people can shoot a 9mm better than a .45 and with a 9mm they have more opportunities to connect with one of those shots. I have been an Army Infantryman for 25 years and have trained with various professionals and tens of thousands of rounds. If walking into combat tomorrow and my choices were a modern striker fired pistol or a 1911, I would eliminate the 1911 first. Now if moving to modern carry and the ability to use HP ammunition, then it is even more in favor of a modern design in 9mm. My personal carry guns are a S&W Shield in 9mm or a Glock 19 3rd Gen using Federal 147gr HST.

Wrong, almost every round my 1911s have fired have been Lead Semi Wad Cutter bullets. A few hundred rounds of ball ammo, and a good bit of JHP, including the infamour Speer 200 gr "flying ashtray."

And not, my pistols are not specially tuned or costly. Basically stock.

And in case you don't know, the military is not longer limited to FMJ.

And guess what, that great bullet technology that works so well for 9mm, is also available in .45, for a bigger, heavier, high tech bullet.

And I have trained a lot of people, and have found that first time shooters shoot the .45 fine. And many of them really like it and buy pistols in it.

And as has been stated, I guess that Marine Force Recon have no clue about firearms. As they picked the M45A1.

Racer Doug14 · Mar 13, 2019

Is Marsoc still using the M45A1? Thought they moved to G19s.

It appears that MARSOC is back and forth on its sidearm. Some M45s some G19s and the rest of the Jarines are going M17/18.

bitterkenny · Mar 13, 2019

Racer Doug14 said:
Is Marsoc still using the M45A1? Thought they moved to G19s.

It appears that MARSOC is back and forth on its sidearm. Some M45s some G19s and the rest of the Jarines are going M17/18.

That's what I thought. Though from what I understand Force Recon and the Raiders are different.

https://dailycaller.com/2016/10/05/marine-raiders-throw-45-overboard/

tpe187 · Mar 13, 2019

Pinecone said:
Wrong, almost every round my 1911s have fired have been Lead Semi Wad Cutter bullets. A few hundred rounds of ball ammo, and a good bit of JHP, including the infamour Speer 200 gr "flying ashtray."

And not, my pistols are not specially tuned or costly. Basically stock.

And in case you don't know, the military is not longer limited to FMJ.

And guess what, that great bullet technology that works so well for 9mm, is also available in .45, for a bigger, heavier, high tech bullet.

And I have trained a lot of people, and have found that first time shooters shoot the .45 fine. And many of them really like it and buy pistols in it.

And as has been stated, I guess that Marine Force Recon have no clue about firearms. As they picked the M45A1.

Sigh...I get it, you're a 1911 guy and have been forever.

Once upon a time I thought the 1911 in .45 ACP was king and rifles should be made of wood and blued steel and chambered in .30cal or above. Hell, I even carried a NM M14 for a time during the invasion of Iraq. I call that my pre-enlightenment period. I currently have three 1911s and have used every manner and variant to include .38 super, .40, 9mm, 10mm, and .45. A 1911 trigger is fairly easy to master.

Yes, I know the military can use HP. But show me who does outside tier 1 units.

If you attend any serious training where people are using a 1911 for 1000rds or more, the 1911s go down more frequently, hence my enthusiast comment.

MARSOC dropped the M45A1 quickly and now use the Glock 19. Do you know why? Because they shot them a lot in their work ups for deployments and realized they weren't durable enough.

If you trust any of the real ballistics experts you will see that modern hollow point ammunition is very close when comparing 9mm, .40, and .45 as far as expansion and penetration an so there is very little gained when moving from 9mm to .45.

Anyone who can shoot a .45 will shoot a 9mm more accurately and is more likely to connect in a vital area. 9mm also gives more opportunities as well.

In the end, decide what fits your needs if you use one for duty or protection or if you just like to shoot paper. I also encourage people to take some training from accredited individuals/organizations.

Racer Doug14 · Mar 13, 2019

bitterkenny said:
That's what I thought. Though from what I understand Force Recon and the Raiders are different.

https://dailycaller.com/2016/10/05/marine-raiders-throw-45-overboard/

The M45 is a beast of a pistol. If you've held one at a LGS you'll agree. This thread is gotten typically muddy.

The 1911 is not obsolete.
As a COMBAT handgun, yes.
Why?
Capacity, Capacity and Capacity.
Reliability being equal. And that's debatable.
I will leave it there.
The NATO spec 9mm leaves a lot to be desired.

TexDefender · Mar 13, 2019

tpe187 said:
Sigh...I get it, you're a 1911 guy and have been forever.

Once upon a time I thought the 1911 in .45 ACP was king and rifles should be made of wood and blued steel and chambered in .30cal or above. Hell, I even carried a NM M14 for a time during the invasion of Iraq. I call that my pre-enlightenment period. I currently have three 1911s and have used every manner and variant to include .38 super, .40, 9mm, 10mm, and .45. A 1911 trigger is fairly easy to master.

Yes, I know the military can use HP. But show me who does outside tier 1 units.

If you attend any serious training where people are using a 1911 for 1000rds or more, the 1911s go down more frequently, hence my enthusiast comment.

MARSOC dropped the M45A1 quickly and now use the Glock 19. Do you know why? Because they shot them a lot in their work ups for deployments and realized they weren't durable enough.

If you trust any of the real ballistics experts you will see that modern hollow point ammunition is very close when comparing 9mm, .40, and .45 as far as expansion and penetration an so there is very little gained when moving from 9mm to .45.

Anyone who can shoot a .45 will shoot a 9mm more accurately and is more likely to connect in a vital area. 9mm also gives more opportunities as well.

In the end, decide what fits your needs if you use one for duty or protection or if you just like to shoot paper. I also encourage people to take some training from accredited individuals/organizations.

This whole discussion is really ridicules, a 9mm is just as capable of making a person just as dead as .45 Cal. And in the end there is just way too many factors that come into play in a fire fight. These are tools, and as any tool. If the situation doesn't allow the use of a preferred tool, you will use the one you have at hand.

mdvctry · Mar 13, 2019

It’s not that 1911’s are obsolete, they’re just not the best tool for every job. I’m sure many enjoy their 60’s era muscle cars, ie Boss 429 Mustang, but it can’t compete with the modern Mustang. Both are cool in their own right and each have their place, but the technology in today’s firearms make them more dependable, have higher capacities and have the ability to quickly and easily swap in and out multiple options or configurations without needing any significant expertise.

TheOriginalMexicanBob · Mar 13, 2019

My understanding why MARSOC dropped the M45A1 was that they were too heavy. No editorial on that. The lack of durability wasn't a reflection of the pistols but the finish. The Marines specified Cerakote which Colt advised them of potential wear issues but supplied what the Marines wanted. Once the Cerakoted pistols started losing their finish under heavy use the Marines changed their minds and then specified IonBond.

I'm sure the Marines that use the Glocks will be happy with them and they'll get the job done.

willtill · Mar 13, 2019

I'm a M1911A1 fan because that is what I used most often; as a sidearm in the military. I'm also satisfied with ball ammo.

.

Alwayscarry5267 · Mar 13, 2019

I love my 1911 and really enjoy shooting it. Nothing beats a 1911 trigger. With that said it is no longer a pragmatic combat pistol. Both over all weight and limited magazine capacity it what limit them as well as the external safety. Yes that can be overcome with training, but at the end of the day do you want to add an additional step in firing that firearm when your life depends on milliseconds? Just like most things from the early 1900 they are an amazing foundation but technology has improved. Just like I admire a model T I don't want to take it across the country or rely on it for my daily driver. People I'm sure do and they can get the job done, but there are safer and more practical options today.

Just my 2 cents.

Racer Doug14 · Mar 13, 2019

Decommissioned M45A1 are popping up on GB hear and there. I would love one of them. But, I'm big Army, so I can't in good conscience. Plus, they are insanely overpriced. Probably some are fakes too. The ones that are new at gun stores are Custom Shop built and a decent value.

TheOriginalMexicanBob · Mar 13, 2019

While there may be faked M45A1 pistols the entire lot of them sold to the public has been documented and serial numbers known.

tomrkba · Mar 13, 2019

Brychan said:
Only obsolete if either you are facing a gang or if you can't hit your target without 17 rds.

That is some really poor thinking right there.

SteveG75 · Mar 13, 2019

Couple of thoughts.

Carry a 1911 almost every day. It is still a very viable carry gun due to the ability to the slim lines and ability to conceal. Living in FL, usually in shorts and T-shirt. No printing. With a good belt, weight is not an issue. I like being reminded I carry. That way, I don't forget my gun anywhere.

I also shoot the 1911 a lot in IDPA (CDP 5" .45, ESP 5" 9mm, CCP 4" 9mm) so the muscle memory is there for condition one carry.

Yes, I am down on capacity compared to a double stack but I am carry to protect myself and family and get the hell out of dodge. I don't plan on hunting down an active shooter. I always carry a reload. My usual carry is 3" Kimber Ultra II in .45 (7+1 so 15 rounds with the reload). Backup carry in RO Compact 9mm (8+1, 17 with reload).

Bottom line for me is carry what you are comfortable with and train with it often.

Edit: For "combat", I'll carry my M+P Pro 9mm (17+1). But in that case, I will also probably be carrying a long gun with multiple reloads.

Racer Doug14 · Mar 13, 2019

54rndball said:
All the guys on the Milsurp World podcast seem to agree that 1911s are obsolete as combat handguns. The main reason seems to be the 7 round magazine. Only double stack assault handguns need apply?

Sent from my iPod touch using Tapatalk

This is the OP,#1, it's always good to refer to it down thread.

When I was in Op. Desert Shield, I carried a 1911. I liked having a BUG to my M16a2. It was my LT's who was back stateside. Then we transitioned to the Beretta. I always felt in a high advantage with 30rounds vs 14. Mainly do to my duty as Platoon SGT's driver. Many solo drives across Saudi and Iraqi. We did not practice "topping off". I carried the 92 for a while, but had to surrender it to our new LT during Desert Storm.

teratos · Mar 13, 2019

tpe187 said:
Sigh...I get it, you're a 1911 guy and have been forever.

Once upon a time I thought the 1911 in .45 ACP was king and rifles should be made of wood and blued steel and chambered in .30cal or above. Hell, I even carried a NM M14 for a time during the invasion of Iraq. I call that my pre-enlightenment period. I currently have three 1911s and have used every manner and variant to include .38 super, .40, 9mm, 10mm, and .45. A 1911 trigger is fairly easy to master.

Yes, I know the military can use HP. But show me who does outside tier 1 units.

If you attend any serious training where people are using a 1911 for 1000rds or more, the 1911s go down more frequently, hence my enthusiast comment.

MARSOC dropped the M45A1 quickly and now use the Glock 19. Do you know why? Because they shot them a lot in their work ups for deployments and realized they weren't durable enough.

If you trust any of the real ballistics experts you will see that modern hollow point ammunition is very close when comparing 9mm, .40, and .45 as far as expansion and penetration an so there is very little gained when moving from 9mm to .45.

Anyone who can shoot a .45 will shoot a 9mm more accurately and is more likely to connect in a vital area. 9mm also gives more opportunities as well.

In the end, decide what fits your needs if you use one for duty or protection or if you just like to shoot paper. I also encourage people to take some training from accredited individuals/organizations.

I have a good friend with 5th Group. 9 deployments and countless other missions. They are permitted to carry anything. He chooses a Kimber 1911. Of course, he is an excellent shot. That said, your pistol is a last resort in combat. Unless you are terrible with your battle rifle, you shouldn’t be wearing out your sidearm.

Also “tier 1” doesn’t mean what you think it means.

Bigtex · Mar 13, 2019

WTF is an “assault handgun”?!

1911s are “obsolete.”

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