Documented 1903 and the story behind it. (PICTURE HEAVY)

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  • SmokeEaterPilot

    Active Member
    Jun 3, 2011
    525
    Alright Guys,

    You probably know I like paperwork. I figured I'd post this on here (locally) before throwing it out on other forums.

    We always hear "Oh if only this rifle could talk." "Buy the rifle not the story." My question to you is, how would you look at the rifle differently if it could? Looking beyond the bolts, pins, and small parts. Tossing out the concept "is this rifle correct?" Focusing on the story it can tell through paperwork. What if it was a story you could prove?

    Now this rifle is NOT mine. It currently resides in a private collection and the owner has expressed to me he now loves the rifle because of the story behind it. Even if it is "salty" to be nice to its condition. She's not pretty.

    This is a rifle I documented and, it's unique for several reasons. One it can be documented to a specific piece of paperwork from the archives. Next, it can be pinpointed to a specific unit. But what was most intriguing about this rifle is that it had an individual attached to it. This particular rifle's serial number is associated to the 14th Cavalry and a specific trooper.

    Now the 14th Cavalry only served in the Mexican Border War, never made it to Europe during World War I. During the Post WWI era, served mostly in the Midwest (probably Iowa since that is where it was moved to, mobilized only for Union Strikes and such.). So it's unit's History during the 1903's issuance was lackluster. But let's look at the individual Leo Girens.

    Census records indicate Leo Girens was born April 18, 1904 of Joseph and Anna Girens in Winnebago, Wisconsin. His father was a painter in the carriage industry. By the age of 17, Leo Girens was working as a laborer for an unidentified Sash and Door Factory. Fifield Lumber Co. was a “sash and door factory that was advertising a need for laborers at this time. Records indicate in 1930 he was a truck driver. He married Mary Weisaple and they had at least one son together, Leo Elmer Girens. In 1932, he became a member of the Oshkosh Fire Department, and became Chief of that Department in 1945. Eventually Girens became President of the Wisconsin State Fire Chiefs Association. He is mentioned in several local newspapers concerning the actions of his fire department at the time.

    I contacted his fire department and they provided a picture of him. They were actually shocked they had anything on him since the file probably has not seen the light of day in quite some time.

    He is found in several newspaper articles(not surprisingly since he was the fire chief for the area.) and attached them. He was also in an article on the history of their Fire Department.

    My question to you, is how would you feel about this rifle in your collection? The documentation from the archives is a snapshot in time, a quick link of the rifle to the trooper. But paint a story of the individual behind the rifle. What he was like. What he looked like. What he did with his life after he served his country. Does that matter to you?

    We all say we love collecting Military Surplus because we love history. But how much do you love history? Can you look beyond "correct parts," "original configuration," "beat, salty, rough."

    "Pretty and Papered" is obviously desirable. But these service arms were used, and the more it was used the more likely it is to carry paperwork.

    If this something in your collection can tell a story, would you listen? Would you care?

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    trailtoy

    GOA, MSI, NRA
    MDS Supporter
    May 19, 2013
    1,489
    St. Marys
    Cool story. His obit says he had 3 sons. I'm guessing he enlisted right around 18? You don't mention how long he was in the Service.
     

    SmokeEaterPilot

    Active Member
    Jun 3, 2011
    525
    Cool story. His obit says he had 3 sons. I'm guessing he enlisted right around 18? You don't mention how long he was in the Service.

    Sorry it looks like he only did one enlistment. And got out after 3-4 years, however long his enlistment was.
     

    lazarus

    Ultimate Member
    Jun 23, 2015
    13,728
    That’s pretty neat. I mean, if you were asking would I pay a premium, maybe? It’s is neat and I’d pay for neat. At least a little. Now, if it had REAL history, yes.

    For instance I have a couple of pictures (somewhere around here) of my great grandfather in his Marine uniform with both a 1903 and a 1917. Now if I could find the specific rifles he served with I would pay a small fortune for those. He served in Italy and Panama (Panama post war) with the Marines. If I am remembering my family history, he enlisted in the lead up to WWI and had attained the rank of Sgt prior to deployment to Italy and SSgt prior to his enlistment ending. He had a Rifle Sharpshooter medal (among a few others).
     

    Blacksmith101

    Grumpy Old Man
    Jun 22, 2012
    22,269
    You might want to look for his WWI draft registration (available on line) also mentions of him during his time in the service in whatever his then home town newspaper was.
     

    lazarus

    Ultimate Member
    Jun 23, 2015
    13,728
    You might want to look for his WWI draft registration (available on line) also mentions of him during his time in the service in whatever his then home town newspaper was.

    Thanks! I’ll try that. I think my father already had, so I’ll see if he has any further information.
     

    SmokeEaterPilot

    Active Member
    Jun 3, 2011
    525
    That’s pretty neat. I mean, if you were asking would I pay a premium, maybe? It’s is neat and I’d pay for neat. At least a little. Now, if it had REAL history, yes.

    For instance I have a couple of pictures (somewhere around here) of my great grandfather in his Marine uniform with both a 1903 and a 1917. Now if I could find the specific rifles he served with I would pay a small fortune for those. He served in Italy and Panama (Panama post war) with the Marines. If I am remembering my family history, he enlisted in the lead up to WWI and had attained the rank of Sgt prior to deployment to Italy and SSgt prior to his enlistment ending. He had a Rifle Sharpshooter medal (among a few others).

    Have you considered ordering a copy of his Service Record Book from St Louis? There's a decent chance his rifle SN should be in there. Since for the USMC rifles were issued for the duration of service and those personnel files were not destroyed by the fire.
     

    lazarus

    Ultimate Member
    Jun 23, 2015
    13,728
    Have you considered ordering a copy of his Service Record Book from St Louis? There's a decent chance his rifle SN should be in there. Since for the USMC rifles were issued for the duration of service and those personnel files were not destroyed by the fire.

    Stupid statement/question, I can do that? What do I need to know, full name I assume? What else? I know my father has his DOB and place of birthday.

    Thanks and now I am really excited to learn more about him (well possibly)!
     

    Derwood

    Ultimate Member
    Jun 2, 2011
    1,077
    DC area
    This is really cool. Have you ever tried using ancestry.com? I've used it to look up my relatives. I was able to quickly pull up scans of my great-grandfather's draft cards (he was drafted-didn't know that), census records showing other people in the household (they had a swedish servent--that must have been nice), newspaper articles (he was a foreman at a furnace--didn't know that), lots of stuff like this!
     

    mawkie

    C&R Whisperer
    Sep 28, 2007
    4,353
    Catonsville
    There are those of us for whom the history of an item is a huge part of the allure of collecting. The connection to a person and place in time is so fascinating. Good job on connecting the firearm to its time with Chief Girens. So sad that he lived such a short life.
     

    Ranchero50

    Ultimate Member
    Dec 15, 2012
    5,411
    Hagerstown MD
    Linking a rifle to a MOH recipient or something similar would be amazing. The flip side is there are so many truly nondescript ones out there that need loving too.
     

    Blacksmith101

    Grumpy Old Man
    Jun 22, 2012
    22,269
    As long as it's born on date fits the time frame I can dream it was in this battle or that one. It could have been and that is all that is necessary.
     

    Threeband

    The M1 Does My Talking
    MDS Supporter
    Dec 30, 2006
    25,306
    Carroll County
    ...

    For instance I have a couple of pictures (somewhere around here) of my great grandfather in his Marine uniform with both a 1903 and a 1917. Now if I could find the specific rifles he served with I would pay a small fortune for those. He served in Italy and Panama (Panama post war) with the Marines. If I am remembering my family history, he enlisted in the lead up to WWI and had attained the rank of Sgt prior to deployment to Italy and SSgt prior to his enlistment ending. He had a Rifle Sharpshooter medal (among a few others).

    That's interesting. I didn't realize any Americans served in Italy in WWI. I know Earnest Hemingway drove an ambulance there, but that's all. Do you know where he and his Marine comrades were doing there?

    (Note: some might not realize Italy was one of the Allies in WWI, engaging in heavy mountain warfare against the Austro-Hungarians.)
     

    Sampson

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Jan 24, 2013
    1,641
    White Marsh
    I'm all in for the history and story. Listening to the stories from generations older than me have always been fascinating. Linking a rifle with it's history is priceless.

    The first old rifle I ever shot was a K98. That 8 mm round had a kick for a green 14 year old. The history of that gun was it had actually been used against the Germans in WWII by some resistance fighters. Very cool to have held and shot a piece of history.
     

    lazarus

    Ultimate Member
    Jun 23, 2015
    13,728
    That's interesting. I didn't realize any Americans served in Italy in WWI. I know Earnest Hemingway drove an ambulance there, but that's all. Do you know where he and his Marine comrades were doing there?

    (Note: some might not realize Italy was one of the Allies in WWI, engaging in heavy mountain warfare against the Austro-Hungarians.)

    No idea. My Dad just knows he served in Italy after the US entered WWI and then served the rest of his enlistment in Panama. If I am remembering right he volunteered and was not drafted. His parents emigrated from Germany (Saxony and Prussia) before he was born.

    My dad just sent me his WWI compensation record for PA. It is thin on details, but it looks like he joined up 6 weeks after war was declared (101 years ago today he joined up!). He served attached to the USS New Jersey for about 8 months. Then quantico for a month, Paris Island for a month then NCO school for a month. 2 months “Co R” and 1 month “SGDepot” and it has no further assignments or units listed. I am guessing SGDepot is the seargents depot for assignment.

    It lists him achieving corporal 6/4/18, First Sgt 4/10/19, reduces to Sgt 4/29/19 and then reappointed 1st Sgt 5/2/19.

    It does list in remarks 3/1/19 USS PITTSBURG, so I assume he was assigned there. Which actually most likely means he was not in Italy in WWI, but slightly post war as the service record of the Pittsburg lists it has undergoing humanitarian efforts in the Mediterranean during that time period.

    It does also list him as 12th company NYC NY with no dates. ETS of 5/20/20, so a 3 year hitch.

    Looks like plenty of info for a full service record search. Supposing it hasn’t been lost or destroyed.
     

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