Regarding the VA rally from somebody with experience with VA "protest control"

rambling_one · Jan 16, 2020

Maybe he’s got a point.

MykR0k · Jan 16, 2020

Nnztg8r said:
Gotta echo the Bibitor.

OP did himself no favors. How you say what you say is pretty important.

What the 2A community is doing strategically and tactically is not advancing the cause imo. The OP was essentially telling you your strategy might be ok (or not...don’t know I’ve ever really heard cogent 2A community strategy) but your tactics are failing miserably.

I cannot argue with that. Being bold and or brave and going to lots of events is not to be confused with making progress against a strategy and or related set of objective metrics.

Briefly put, the proof is in the pudding. Look at VA and Gov Blackface and his socialist minions. The 2A community is in an almost constant tail chase. Raising funds and hiring attorneys is but one annex to what should be a comprehensive OPLAN and that must be rooted in some solid strategy with some damned effective and constantly updated tactics. We do a lot of tail chasing and hand wringing. Fight fire with Fire. The moral high ground sounds nice right up until you can’t touch bottom because the swamp subsumed all the damned terra firma...and NEVER LEARNED TO SWIM.

That condition does not exist today or you’d be making progress not sucking hind teat.

The OP said some things poorly. They need to be said. Inevitably, you need to be uncomfortable to make progress.

If VA represents progress (how we got where we are) then count me out. I’ll sit up in these hills and take my chances with someone one day struggling up the hill and trying to take my kit.

None of this denigrates person A or organization B. New blood, young turks/bucks need to be identified, recruited, taught and LISTENED TO. Patience with potential talent and future leaders is the hallmark of a good movement, team, or group. When you think you know everything, you’re sadly mistaken.

Don’t throw out the baby with the damned bath water. If you read this and want to be offended...so be it. If you read it and say, hmmm, maybe he has a point, well then, Good on ya.

"The OP said some things poorly. They need to be said."

Just an observation but it's extremely rare when someone can verbalize what needs to be said in a manner that's both to the point and palatable to all. Usually when something needs to be said, it's already past the point of courteous words.

copasetic · Jan 16, 2020

Reading other forums... it seems there will be quite a bit carrying rifles and wearing body armor... tens of thousands, probably not, but thousands are likely. This firearms ban in the capital square seems to be hardening peoples resolve - and I’ve noticed comments like - “I was planning on concealed carry, but eff it, I’ll bring full kit and rifle now” ... I guess we’ll know in a few days.

bibitor said:
I wasn’t exactly clear in my last post. I meant to imply tens of thousand of armed protestors, otherwise where’s the civil disobedience? Gathering in a government approved and controlled free speech zone is just a protest. I still consider such gatherings necessary and impactful, but no one would consider it defiant.

teratos · Jan 16, 2020

copasetic said:
Reading other forums... it seems there will be quite a bit carrying rifles and wearing body armor... tens of thousands, probably not, but thousands are likely. This firearms ban in the capital square seems to be hardening peoples resolve - and I’ve noticed comments like - “I was planning on concealed carry, but eff it, I’ll bring full kit and rifle now” ... I guess we’ll know in a few days.

I’m in that camp. Leaving the .45 at home. I’m bringing my AR.

IDFInfantry · Jan 16, 2020

Same here. I'll be in full kit. I'd wager a guess that there will be close to 10,000 people there!
F@cK Ralph Northam!

teratos · Jan 16, 2020

IDFInfantry said:
Same here. I'll be in full kit. I'd wager a guess that there will be close to 10,000 people there!
**** Ralph Northam!

My 18 year old son is coming. He’ll be wearing my body armor. Estimated crowd is as high as 130,000.

AACO_Salami · Jan 16, 2020

Occam said:
Would someone doing those things to you cause you to change your mind and approve of more gun restrictions? No? Why not?

No. But, I am not a legislator tasked with the role of creating laws. There is no possible argument that could away my opinion and cause me to support any gun restrictions. I am not one of the "on the fence'' folks.
I will say, however, the proof is in the pudding. The prim and proper 2A community has aired their grievances in their own way, and th anti crowd has done the same.
Tell me, who has been more successful?

AACO_Salami · Jan 16, 2020

teratos said:
So you contend using other tactics would be successful? Being rude, belligerent, threatening....which do you think will get is to the point where the Democratic Super-majority to give up? They don’t have to give up a damned thing. Thinking some other tactic will work shows a very naive view of power.

Very naive. Lol. I'll ask you the same s I asked before. Who's tactics have been more successful? Your polite, higher road tactics, or the lefts total war tactics?

Steve_Zissou · Jan 16, 2020

A[Maryland]Farmer;5757982 said:
Very naive. Lol. I'll ask you the same s I asked before. Who's tactics have been more successful? Your polite, higher road tactics, or the lefts total war tactics?

But just look at the fantastic job that the mainstream right has done at conserving America's culture, values, rights, and demographics over the past half century! So, so much winning that you almost get tired of it all!

teratos · Jan 16, 2020

A[Maryland]Farmer;5757982 said:
Very naive. Lol. I'll ask you the same s I asked before. Who's tactics have been more successful? Your polite, higher road tactics, or the lefts total war tactics?

So the super-majority will crumble under “total war tactics” from the minority? That is literally NEVER how it works.

Steve_Zissou · Jan 16, 2020

I think he meant nationally, not locally.

AACO_Salami · Jan 16, 2020

teratos said:
So the super-majority will crumble under “total war tactics” from the minority? That is literally NEVER how it works.

You're right. Look at gay rights/gay marriage. I mean a majority of society is composed of homosexuals, that is the only way gay marriage was finally recognized.

AACO_Salami · Jan 16, 2020

I mean, if it weren't for the fact that 87% of the United States was non-white in 1968, the 1968 civil Rights act never could have become law.

teratos · Jan 16, 2020

A[Maryland]Farmer;5757992 said:
You're right. Look at gay rights/gay marriage. I mean a majority of society is composed of homosexuals, that is the only way gay marriage was finally recognized.

Although homosexual citizens are a minority, the majority (including me) were in favor of gay marriage. The Constitution is there to protect the minority. It’s how a republic works. It’s the consequence of the State getting involved in marriage. Bad example.

The super-majority ALWAYS tries to crush its’ opposition at all costs.

teratos · Jan 16, 2020

A[Maryland]Farmer;5757996 said:
I mean, if it weren't for the fact that 87% of the United States was non-white in 1968, the 1968 civil Rights act never could have become law.

Silly. It was the right thing to do. It was what the Constitution demands.

Occam · Jan 16, 2020

A[Maryland]Farmer;5757981 said:
The prim and proper 2A community has aired their grievances in their own way, and th anti crowd has done the same.
Tell me, who has been more successful?

The ones with more VOTES. In Maryland, it's an overwhelmingly lopsided group (of not just legislators, but fellow citizens) who are thoroughly committed to removing our firearms. Stalking, harassing, and otherwise getting in the faces of lefty politicians to the point where they talk about it (let alone it being seen in endless viral video loops promoted by Bloomberg cash) won't somehow make all of those soccer moms sit up and and say, "Well, now that I know those people I'm scared of with their guns are willing to be even more aggressive towards the people I like, why, I guess I'll agree with them and vote for a Republican in my district even though I hate everything else they stand for, too!"

The ONLY solution in a state that's got liberal voters completely eclipsing us is to win in the courts. Being menacing, scolding them, having fits, and resorting to their tactics (doxxing, lying, smearing, etc - especially when every media outlet in the state is 100% on their side and devoted to ending us) doesn't move the needle anywhere but even farther away from where we want it.

Yes, I'll continue to communicate with my delegates, senators, council members, governor, and federal representatives. But it's - by definition - literally pointless other than as an exhibition of principle. What I'll really be doing is financially supporting the right people at the party level and in individual races in swing/vulnerable states to preserve the Senate (and maybe retake the house, who knows), and to get Trump reelected. Because that's how we solve this problem. Patiently, in the circuit, appeals, and supreme courts.

Stamping our feet in Maryland isn't going to make liberals suddenly want to vote for Republicans. Shaming the state legislature MAY, once in a while, get a particularly horrible bill killed or at least gelded in committee. But this isn't Virginia. Maryland is SO much farther gone. Generationally.

AACO_Salami · Jan 16, 2020

teratos said:
Silly. It was the right thing to do. It was what the Constitution demands.

Wait... You're telling me that somehow the majority was convinced to recognize the rights of the minority?!?!?!?!

ThIs iS NoT pOsSiBlE

Occam · Jan 16, 2020

A[Maryland]Farmer;5757992 said:
You're right. Look at gay rights/gay marriage. I mean a majority of society is composed of homosexuals, that is the only way gay marriage was finally recognized.

No, it got recognized because the constitution requires equal protection under the law. And since the government is still in the marriage business, denying people equal treatment under the law is facially unconstitutional. That one wasn't the least bit complicated, any more than was saying that skin color has no bearing on your civil rights.

teratos · Jan 16, 2020

A[Maryland]Farmer;5758003 said:
Wait... You're telling me that somehow the majority was convinced to recognize the rights of the minority?!?!?!?!

ThIs iS NoT pOsSiBlE

Have you read the Constitution? This is how a republic works. Also, most citizens were on the side of the civil rights movement. Do you contend that “colored” people should still be 3/5 of a person, or do you (like most people even in the 60’s) believe in the civil rights movement?

AACO_Salami · Jan 16, 2020

Occam said:
The ones with more VOTES. In Maryland, it's an overwhelmingly lopsided group (of not just legislators, but fellow citizens) who are thoroughly committed to removing our firearms. Stalking, harassing, and otherwise getting in the faces of lefty politicians to the point where they talk about it (let alone it being seen in endless viral video loops promoted by Bloomberg cash) won't somehow make all of those soccer moms sit up and and say, "Well, now that I know those people I'm scared of with their guns are willing to be even more aggressive towards the people I like, why, I guess I'll agree with them and vote for a Republican in my district even though I hate everything else they stand for, too!"

The ONLY solution in a state that's got liberal voters completely eclipsing us is to win in the courts. Being menacing, scolding them, having fits, and resorting to their tactics (doxxing, lying, smearing, etc - especially when every media outlet in the state is 100% on their side and devoted to ending us) doesn't move the needle anywhere but even farther away from where we want it.

Yes, I'll continue to communicate with my delegates, senators, council members, governor, and federal representatives. But it's - by definition - literally pointless other than as an exhibition of principle. What I really be doing is financially supporting the right people at the party level and in individual races in swing/vulnerable states to preserve the Senate (and maybe retake the house, who knows), and to get Trump reelected. Because that's how we solve this problem. Patiently, in the circuit, appeals, and supreme courts.

Stamping our feet in Maryland isn't going to make liberals suddenly want to vote for Republicans. Shaming the state legislature MAY, once in a while, get a particularly horrible bill killed or at least gelded in committee. But this isn't Virginia. Maryland is SO much farther gone. Generationally.

The courts, another successful route we have taken.

I agree about the VA and MD comparison. Maryland is entirely too far gone, there are not near enough Patriots left in this state to put up the resistance we are seeing in Virginia.

I just hope and pray they rebuke the tactics we have undertaken. I hope they realize that appealing to left wing legislators and begging like some 2nd class citizens or your rights is fruitless.

The only thing keeping people in line is fear. People follow laws out of fear of the consequences. The government presses but so far out of fear of the governed. Our problem today is that the politicians no longer fear pressing too far, they do not have to live with the consequences of their actions. Until that changes, nothing will change.

Regarding the VA rally from somebody with experience with VA "protest control"

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