"Disapproved" for Hand Gun Purchase... Questions...

GBMaryland · Feb 26, 2010

Ok,

So I went local store and purchased a handgun. I filled out all of the paperwork, and it turns out that on Monday I was "disapproved."

I asked the store who do I call, what do I do, etc.? They gave me an MSP Sgt's name, and told me to call him.

It turns out that I was "convicted" of a "Petty Disorderly Person's Offense" in New Jersey in 1990. [e.g. not convicted of a felony]

Of course, that's NOT at all the complete story: The convinction was appealed, the sentence vacated, and, or so I thought, my record expunged.

So now, I have questions...

1) Why did Maryland "disapprove" my purchase. I was NOT (in any event) convicted of a felony...

2) No national background check (and there have been some fairly extensive checks) shows the NJ conviction. So how did Maryland get a hold the conviction, NOT get a hold of the fact that the conviction was overturned, and, subsequently deny me?

3) Am I correct that only a Felony conviction prevents you from being allowed to purchase a "regulated" firearm?

Now, as far as I know, the matter has been successfully dealt with. I faxed the MDSP Sgt. the paperwork indicating the "vacting of the conviction" and he indicated that MD would put that information in the system and this would never happen again.

...but I'm still wondering about the mechanics of how it was determined that I should be disapproved.

Also, I've bought plenty of firearms over the years and have NEVER run into this...

Thoughts? Feedback??

GB

SMPress · Feb 26, 2010

Not unheard of. On my 5th or 6th purchase I was denied. Turned out they had on record in another state that I had a speeding ticket that I never paid, and dint show to court for. I had paid it, but didnt have proof, so endedup having to pay for it again. Took about three months to get GA to tell MD that it was all cleared up. This was about 8 years ago, and to this day, when doing the NCIS check, or whatever it is called, I always get a delay or hold response. It is a pain in the ass, as the dealer has to call a live person to run the computer check and give an OK for me. I have no issue when doing a regulated purchase as they have the time to run it through by hand I guess. Still, it sucks!!! I would contact NJ and ask why they didnt give te info over to MD. Atleastyou had the proof and could supply it to MD...

Andy

K-Romulus · Feb 26, 2010

GBMaryland said:
Ok,

...

1) Why did Maryland "disapprove" my purchase. I was NOT (in any event) convicted of a felony...

MD looks at "equivalent" disqualifying crimes. MD law bars you from "regulated firearms" ownership if you are convicted of "2d degree assault" (I think that's what it is called).

2) No national background check (and there have been some fairly extensive checks) shows the NJ conviction. So how did Maryland get a hold the conviction, NOT get a hold of the fact that the conviction was overturned, and, subsequently deny me?

G-d only knows where MD digs for info on purchasers . . .

3) Am I correct that only a Felony conviction prevents you from being allowed to purchase a "regulated" firearm?

No, the simple assault I referenced is a "misdemeanor" in MD,
but it will disqualify you.
...
Hopefully Novus will be here with more info . . he seems to be up on this stuff . ..

Splitter · Feb 26, 2010

That you could be denied a firearm for a speeding ticket is insane. What in the world does one have to do with the other?

Splitter

GBMaryland · Feb 26, 2010

Well, I called the Sgt. and go a little information... (now that it's clear I'm not a felon, he's certainly more than happy to talk to me -grin-)

1) His system shows the NJ statue that I was ORIGINALLY charged with, not what I was actually convicted of. (!?!?!?)

2) It appears that the court in New Jersey did not update the record to completely expunge the conviction. [Given what transpired in the court, which is a LONG story, this is actually not a suprise to me.]

3) MD lists the original crime I was charged with as something that you can jailed for up to 3 years for... Which is kidna funny, given that NJ considers it a minmum of 5 years. [We're talking about the original charges here, not what the DA lowered them to ("NJS 2C:33-2a(2) Improper behavior, a petty disorderly persons offense").

All of that being said, it was a case of mistaken identity... and it's been a PITA for 20 years. However, I'm still confused as no organization has EVER found this out during a background check. [The only ones that have are because I've personally provided the court documents...]

I wonder what new system has been put in place that suddenly started to show this out-dated information?

Anyway, I've called the firm that originally represented me, and told them that I don't care what it resonably costs, I want this taken care. (Which means that several thousand dollars from now it'll be resolved...)

Ab_Normal · Feb 26, 2010

GBMaryland said:
(Which means that several thousand dollars from now it'll be resolved...)

Maybe.

Markp · Feb 26, 2010

Don't you love how easily your rights can be stripped from you. Remember that when you think that "criminals" shouldn't have access to firearms. Were all criminals... just haven't been prosecuted yet or even realize it.

If you think you aren't... think closely... have you ever jay-walked? That's potentially reckless endangerment right there. It's a real fine line between having your rights respected and losing them forever.

Mark

MDMOUNTAINEER · Feb 26, 2010

That blows, sorry to hear.

GBMaryland · Feb 26, 2010

tss1004 said:
That blows, sorry to hear.

True, but at least I have all of the paperwork, and MD is happy enough to fix it in their records.

The bigger concern is where else would this come to bite to me?

tdt91 · Feb 26, 2010

GBMaryland said:
Well, I called the Sgt. and go a little information... (now that it's clear I'm not a felon, he's certainly more than happy to talk to me -grin-)

1) His system shows the NJ statue that I was ORIGINALLY charged with, not what I was actually convicted of. (!?!?!?)

2) It appears that the court in New Jersey did not update the record to completely expunge the conviction. [Given what transpired in the court, which is a LONG story, this is actually not a suprise to me.]

3) MD lists the original crime I was charged with as something that you can jailed for up to 3 years for... Which is kidna funny, given that NJ considers it a minmum of 5 years. [We're talking about the original charges here, not what the DA lowered them to ("NJS 2C:33-2a(2) Improper behavior, a petty disorderly persons offense").

All of that being said, it was a case of mistaken identity... and it's been a PITA for 20 years. However, I'm still confused as no organization has EVER found this out during a background check. [The only ones that have are because I've personally provided the court documents...]

I wonder what new system has been put in place that suddenly started to show this out-dated information?

Anyway, I've called the firm that originally represented me, and told them that I don't care what it resonably costs, I want this taken care. (Which means that several thousand dollars from now it'll be resolved...)

sounds like something you could take care of at the court office in N.J. It may be wortha day trip

SMPress · Feb 26, 2010

Splitter,

In my case, GA sisnt record my payment of the ticket. I had left GA and moved back to MD, and they claim they couldnt find me, even though I left info with my previous employer, and with the post office. None the less, after a few years of them not finding me to notify me, and me not showing up to court, since they werent letting me know there was an issue, the judge issued a bench warrant for my arrest, as he figured I was in contempt of court. Of course once I heard about it, aftr having been denied for a hand gun, I called, and paid over the phone, asd all was well with GA, no charges on my record. Something still shows on my record, hense the instant check always comeing back as a hold, but when talking to a live person, they can see what all transpired, and OK my application. The problem is getting the dealer to take the time to call them to get the OK...

Andy

Splitter · Feb 26, 2010

SMPress said:
Splitter,

In my case, GA sisnt record my payment of the ticket. I had left GA and moved back to MD, and they claim they couldnt find me, even though I left info with my previous employer, and with the post office. None the less, after a few years of them not finding me to notify me, and me not showing up to court, since they werent letting me know there was an issue, the judge issued a bench warrant for my arrest, as he figured I was in contempt of court. Of course once I heard about it, aftr having been denied for a hand gun, I called, and paid over the phone, asd all was well with GA, no charges on my record. Something still shows on my record, hense the instant check always comeing back as a hold, but when talking to a live person, they can see what all transpired, and OK my application. The problem is getting the dealer to take the time to call them to get the OK...

Andy

I wasn't questioning your account of the situation in the least

. My question was general....why would a traffic violation prevent someone from getting a firearm? A non-paid ticket equals a denial? That's just silly, IMHO.

There was nothing violent about the "offense" so there is no reason a person in that situation should be denied.

Splitter

SMPress · Feb 26, 2010

Yeah, I dont disagree, but I suppose MD only saw a bench warrant, and didnt know what it was for? I dont really know, I dont know much of anything about law, except what I see on TV ;-) Certainly a speeding ticket wouldnt be enough on its own to deny, yet anyway...

GBMaryland · Feb 26, 2010

tdt91 said:
sounds like something you could take care of at the court office in N.J. It may be wortha day trip

I'm going to call them, but the town is question is notorious for not caring one little bit unless you're an attorney.

(On my day in court in this town, they actually proceeded in alphabetical order by last name. They tried three complete cases before mine, all of the traffic violations, and proceeded to empty the courtroom of anyone that could witness my trial. Then, they tried mine, and, after the officer, judge, and local DA went into the judges chambers to discuss the evidence, found me guilty. Needless to say, my lawyer was going nuts...)

NJ, in general, has an attitude problem in the courts. Basically, if you show up in court, even if you are perfectly well behaved, etc., and you don't have an attorney... the judge typically will not have the time of day for you.

I've seen a few instances where two (or more) people show up for court, one with an attorney and one without... and the judge absolutely gives defferential treatment to the client with the attorney.

Actually, what I should do, now that I think about it... is get a local attorney from the town to take care of this. That's much more likely to go off without a hitch, as they'll be well known to the court.

Maverick0313 · Feb 26, 2010

Splitter said:
That you could be denied a firearm for a speeding ticket is insane. What in the world does one have to do with the other?

Splitter

Answer....NOTHING. Welcome to the Soclialist State of Maryland. :mad54:

novus collectus · Feb 26, 2010

K-Romulus said:
MD looks at "equivalent" disqualifying crimes. MD law bars you from "regulated firearms" ownership if you are convicted of "2d degree assault" (I think that's what it is called).

G-d only knows where MD digs for info on purchasers . . .

No, the simple assault I referenced is a "misdemeanor" in MD,
but it will disqualify you.
...
Hopefully Novus will be here with more info . . he seems to be up on this stuff . ..

Hmmmm, I dunno about this. I used to think this would make all equivalent prohibitting crimes in other states would make a person prohibitted from possessing firearms in MD, but maybe not.

§ 5-622.

(a) In this section, "firearm" includes:

(1) a handgun, antique firearm, rifle, shotgun, short-barreled shotgun, and short-barreled rifle, as those words are defined in § 4-201 of this article;

(2) a machine gun, as defined in § 4-401 of this article; and

(3) a regulated firearm, as defined in § 5-101 of the Public Safety Article.

(b) A person may not possess, own, carry, or transport a firearm if that person has been convicted of:

(1) a felony under this title;

(2) a crime under the laws of another state or of the United States that would be a felony under this title if committed in this State;

As Charliefoxtrot pointed out, that title is for basically drug crimes.

Now in the regulated firearms section it does have this:

Article - Public Safety

§ 5-133.

(a) This section supersedes any restriction that a local jurisdiction in the State imposes on the possession by a private party of a regulated firearm, and the State preempts the right of any local jurisdiction to regulate the possession of a regulated firearm.

(b) A person may not possess a regulated firearm if the person:

(1) has been convicted of a disqualifying crime;

(2) has been convicted of a violation classified as a common law crime and received a term of imprisonment of more than 2 years;

(3) is a fugitive from justice;

(4) is a habitual drunkard;

(5) is addicted to a controlled dangerous substance or is a habitual user;

(6) suffers from a mental disorder as defined in § 10-101(f)(2) of the Health - General Article and has a history of violent behavior against the person or another, unless the person has a physician's certificate that the person is capable of possessing a regulated firearm without undue danger to the person or to another;

(7) has been confined for more than 30 consecutive days to a facility as defined in § 10-101 of the Health - General Article, unless the person has a physician's certificate that the person is capable of possessing a regulated firearm without undue danger to the person or to another;

(8) is a respondent against whom a current non ex parte civil protective order has been entered under § 4-506 of the Family Law Article; or

(9) if under the age of 30 years at the time of possession, has been adjudicated delinquent by a juvenile court for an act that would be a disqualifying crime if committed by an adult.

(c) (1) A person may not possess a regulated firearm if the person was previously convicted of:

(i) a crime of violence; or

(ii) a violation of § 5-602, § 5-603, § 5-604, § 5-605, § 5-606, § 5-607, § 5-608, § 5-609, § 5-612, § 5-613, or § 5-614 of the Criminal Law Article.

Now as I read it, the crime of violence conviction does not necessarily have to occur in this state, but let's say someone with a conviction of a non-violent and non-drug related crime in another state that is a less than two year misdemeanor there but a greater than two year misdemeanor here.....I am guessing they might be able to still possess regulated firearms.

novus collectus · Feb 26, 2010

Splitter said:
That you could be denied a firearm for a speeding ticket is insane. What in the world does one have to do with the other?

Splitter

(b) A person may not possess a regulated firearm if the person:

(1) has been convicted of a disqualifying crime;

(2) has been convicted of a violation classified as a common law crime and received a term of imprisonment of more than 2 years;

(3) is a fugitive from justice;

I guess that includes failure to appear warrants for traffic court.

SMPress · Feb 26, 2010

Makes sense to me Novus. Luckily in my case a phone number and a credit card cured the issue. Think how much sales tax MD would have lost on all my gun purchases since then ;-)

GBMaryland · Feb 26, 2010

novus collectus said:
Now as I read it, the crime of violence conviction does not necessarily have to occur in this state, but let's say someone with a conviction of a non-violent and non-drug related crime in another state that is a less than two year misdemeanor there but a greater than two year misdemeanor here.....I am guessing they might be able to still possess regulated firearms.

In my case that was pretty much what the Sgt. said... the equivalent crime in Maryland is up to 3 years in prison.

The really distubring thng is that he pulled up the worng charge; the MD system got that I was somehow convicted of the original charges... which doesn't make ANY sense.

GBMaryland · Feb 26, 2010

BTW guys:

Just so that you know...

Anything within reach of an occupant of a vehicle in New Jersey that can be used as a weapon, is a class 2 felony, and punishable by up to 6 years in prison.

That means: firearms, knives, baseball bats, screw drivers, large tools, and anything that can harm a human being.

I was moving from one house to another, and the car was full of "dangerous objects." Unfortunately, one of them was a knife.

Fortunately, he couldn't read very well [license plates and type of car] and pulled me over without cause... which is what saved my butt on appeal.

...and, yes, the officer actually told me that if I had had a baseball bat in the car, he would ahve charged me with a second count.

"Disapproved" for Hand Gun Purchase... Questions...

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