Educate Me on Sub MOA .22lr

Biggfoot44 · Aug 23, 2019

Didn't want to totally jack the MARS thread, so I started one here . I might be out of the loop, so educate me .

My curiosity piqued by the other thread , I took a quick look at the people who are really serious about extreme accuracy rimfire , the Rimfire Benchrest guys .

Yes sub MOA is a thing , but I'm seeing Bolt Actions . To be competitive there , the floor seems to start with high end Anshutz , and quickly move into scratch built with custom Benchrest specific actions . But not semiautos outside their own classes .

So fill me in to sub MOA Autoloaders , and point me to. Not necessarily for MARS type matches , but I'll settle for man portable, human aimed and fired from a bench if need be for sub 1.0 @ 100yd, or sub 2.0 @ 200yd .

PoPo3 · Aug 23, 2019

I could be wrong here, but outside 100 yards, I think you are at the mercy of the ammunition. Most of it falls apart when it comes to accuracy after 100. I have a Ruger 10/22 that consistently shoots sub moa at 50 yards, sometimes at 100, and almost never at 200. And by consistently sub moa at 50, I’m talking in the .3” grouping.

mtlcafan79 · Aug 23, 2019

I've been really happy with a KIDD Supergrade action. It's minute of paintball at 100 yards with the correct ammo. It loves SK Match.

Hit and Run · Aug 23, 2019

Biggfoot44 said:
Didn't want to totally jack the MARS thread, so I started one here . I might be out of the loop, so educate me .

My curiosity piqued by the other thread , I took a quick look at the people who are really serious about extreme accuracy rimfire , the Rimfire Benchrest guys .

Yes sub MOA is a thing , but I'm seeing Bolt Actions . To be competitive there , the floor seems to start with high end Anshutz , and quickly move into scratch built with custom Benchrest specific actions . But not semiautos outside their own classes .

So fill me in to sub MOA Autoloaders , and point me to. Not necessarily for MARS type matches , but I'll settle for man portable, human aimed and fired from a bench if need be for sub 1.0 @ 100yd, or sub 2.0 @ 200yd .

Most competitors seem to prefer bolt action rifles. You can get some quality 10/22 barrels for completion as well. Some have very tight tolerances in chamber to point a bit harder to eject an unfired cartridge.

A lot of consistancy is the ammunition. I shoot IR5050 matches with a CZ455 bull barrel now (best price point for me but definitely better and more expensive bolt action rifles). Best ammo I have found for it is Lapua Midas +. To get a bullseye you have to cut center which basically the diameter of the bullet. I used to shoot a tricked out 10/22 with a match grade KIDD barrel. The CZ455 was an improvement. The 10/22 with KIDD seemed to be more consistent with RWS R50 ammo. The ammunition/rifle match is a big part of it in my humble opinion.

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk

Mark75H · Aug 23, 2019

The high end 10-22 stuff goes this direction. Volquartsen is another brand in the chase https://volquartsen.com/departments/rifles

6Den · Aug 23, 2019

The T/C R55s can achieve MOA accuracy with the right ammo.

Jollyllama · Aug 23, 2019

I don’t shoot cooperatively but do like accurate rimfires. I can’t add anything to the competitive circuit convo but I can relay my experience.

I have a 10/22 that has had some Modifications done; namely a trigger and a kidd ULW barrel. It shoots 1 moa with my current lot of cci subsonic segmented HPs. It’s really for varmint control so most shots are within 30 yds.

I just got a 455 CZ Scout and shot the attached group at 50yds with open sights. I have heard CZ is hit or miss on their barrels, but overall well revered. I pulled the flyer and knew it; 5rds. Still managed a good group. This was the first (and only) 25 rds out of it; american eagle 45gr suppressor ammo, with a sparrow attached. It isn’t match ammo by any means but is fun for plinking.

I’ll probably get another CZ.

fidelity · Aug 23, 2019

1 MOA at 200 yards (i.e. 2 inch groups) is really hard even with match grade 22LR ammo and decent benchrest rifles. There’s an entire thread devoted to this topic on rimfirecentral.com by a guy named jaia. Lots of factors that probably contribute to the accuracy loss including greater chance of environmental elements (wind) to interfere, diminishing bullet stability (e.g. when a quarterback throws a football at distance, the spiral starts to open up at longer distances), etc. Another problem is that 22LR is a slow round, and even with match grade ammo, one can see 30-50 fps variation between rounds at the muzzle (e.g. for a standard velocity round with an average speed of 1050 fps) - whereas with centerfire rounds, esp handloads, the % round to round muzzle velocity differences are probably less (with projectiles that have better bullet coefficients).

1 MOA at 100 yards is much more achievable with customized 10/22 rifles or factory Anschutz, Cooper (they say that recent years have been more variable), CZ (depending on the model), and Tikka. I’ve gotten great performance from a CZ 455 varmint, a CZ 513 farmer, and Tikka T1x in 22LR at 50 and 100 yards - and will eventually go both the custom 10/22 route as well as get an Anschutz (leaning toward a sporter vs benchrest model). If I had to recommend just one with a reasonable entry cost, not requiring extensive modification to shoot 1 inch or better groups at 100 yards, and to carry as you’ve mentioned, I would go with the Tikka T1x that, when available, goes for $430-480.

Biggfoot44 · Aug 23, 2019

So there hasn't been a quantum breakthrough in long range Rimfire in the 2 or 3yrs since I looked closely . And ammunition is still the limiting factor at 100yds and beyond .

But I will have to take a look at R55 and Kidd actions .

******************

What sunk into me from some ofthe Benchrest forums conversations waz that to actually learn the subtleties of bag technique, and wind reading , a rifle of a certain accuracy was needed , otherwise bag technique and doping skills would alk be lost in the background noise of inherent inaccuracy , to where you would waste thousands of rounds of $$ match ammo , and a cpl years of your time chasing your tail experemting with bench equiment, technique, and ammo lots ,when the rifle itself was limiting factor .

There consensus was , if you're not willing to invest $3k-ish in a Rifle ( not counting scope or bench gear ) , then don't start Serious Benchrest .

owgriffin · Aug 24, 2019

Sub MOA .22

I have a Ruger 10/22 target model with the heavy barrel and beautiful laminated stock. It is 1 moa at 100 yards and about a half inch at 50 yards. I would not even try at 200 as there is a fair amount of drop at 100.

One of the keys is cleaning. It builds up lead/copper rapidly and you can see the groups leaning down and to the left as the barrel build up slows the rounds down. Due to the small charge and heavy barrel heat is not an issue, but you have to clean it after about 50 rounds to maintain the best accuracy. Hope that helps. Also, of course is the issue with 22 ammo. The variation between really expensive ammo and just regular ammo is huge between shots. I don't know if the issue is quality control in general or variations in the weight of the bullet, but anything less than something like the 40g CCI's has really bad variability in the charge.

ted76 · Aug 24, 2019

I think that you need to find the ammo that you gun likes the best, and then sort the shells by weight and then if you want, get one of these gauges and sort them by rim thickness and/or runout.

https://www.neiljones.com/html/rimfire_gauge.html

https://www.amazon.com/Hornady-RF17-Lock-N-Load-Rimfire-Thickness/dp/B000PD1XJY

http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com...hickness-tool-and-base-to-ogive-length-gauge/

https://www.hornady.com/reloading/p...ls-and-gauges/lock-n-load-rim-thickness-gauge

http://www.nielsonbrothersarms.com/22 Concentricity.htm

https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?LH_...sacat=&_sadis=&_sop=12&_udhi=&_udlo=&_fosrp=1

Pinecone · Aug 25, 2019

owgriffin said:
I have a Ruger 10/22 target model with the heavy barrel and beautiful laminated stock. It is 1 moa at 100 yards and about a half inch at 50 yards. I would not even try at 200 as there is a fair amount of drop at 100.

One of the keys is cleaning. It builds up lead/copper rapidly and you can see the groups leaning down and to the left as the barrel build up slows the rounds down. Due to the small charge and heavy barrel heat is not an issue, but you have to clean it after about 50 rounds to maintain the best accuracy. Hope that helps. Also, of course is the issue with 22 ammo. The variation between really expensive ammo and just regular ammo is huge between shots. I don't know if the issue is quality control in general or variations in the weight of the bullet, but anything less than something like the 40g CCI's has really bad variability in the charge.

Interesting on the cleaning.

When I shot on the rifle team in college, we cleaned the rifles once per year, at the end of the season. NEVER during.

No copper, as all our match ammo was lead only.

Mark75H · Aug 25, 2019

Pinecone said:
Interesting on the cleaning.

When I shot on the rifle team in college, we cleaned the rifles once per year, at the end of the season. NEVER during.

No copper, as all our match ammo was lead only.

Yeah, there are varying opinions on cleaning target rifles.

In reality, it should come down to what works best for each particular rifle.

My Walther KKM UIT looses accuracy with cleaning and takes 20 shots or so to get back in its groove.

centerfire301 · Aug 28, 2019

I have a Clark Custom 10-22 and it is a sub MOA but I need to run high end ammo to get there.

Mark75H · Aug 28, 2019

My bolt action Walther shoots ½ MOA with 16 cent per round Eley SubSonic Hollow Point. If memory serves it did OK with RWS R-50 @ 32 cents per round, but couldn't get below .65 MOA with any version of Tenex, even the 40 cent per round stuff. It almost punched single holes at 100 with a particular batch of the old black box Aguila target, but Aguila doesn't make that exact ammo any more

The ammo has to be good, but it doesn't have to be the most expensive; just what is right for that particular gun.

photoracer · Aug 28, 2019

I shot free-standing metallic silhouette with my Remington 597. It started out as a regular $150 rifle from Walmart. Then Rimfire Challenge speed shooting came out so Scott Volquartsen and I built it for that originally complete with one of his original stainless steel and carbon fiber tensioned barrels. Turned out really accurate but not good cycling fast at speed shooting. So dropped in a Jard match trigger at 2# (actually tested at 1.5#) and found it shot sub-MOA out to at least 50 yards using plain old CCI SV. That's when I tried it out shooting metallic silhouette and won 3 club championships in a 6 year span. Have not tried better ammo although I have some Eley in my stock. Also used that rifle to just about run the table on my club's Winchester NRA Benchrest qualification. Never tried it out to 100 yards, however, only to 50.
I would really like to have one of the Swiss Bleiker bolt guns the guy used to do all the .22LR ammo tests with on AccurateShooter.com. That test showed that better ammo shot tighter in most cases but with all rifles sometimes you find a rifle that likes something cheap on occasion.

Blacksmith101 · Sep 26, 2019

Link to one of the .22LR ammo tests on AccurateShooter.com showing various ammo in a number of different rifles, click on the rifle description in the first post to see the test results (they are shooting for group size only so they are not zeroed on the sighting dot):
http://forums.accuratereloading.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/8711043/m/7531057281

Bountied · Sep 27, 2019

My custom 10/22 and CZ455 both shoot about the same with Eley Biathalon ammo, it is also is the most consistent ammo I have tested with an SD of 2.8. A dime can cover a 5 shot group with both rifles.

I shoot the MARS matches occasionally and have run the 10/22 and CZ455. I scored better with the 10/22 because I don't have to run the bolt. The 10/22 receiver is from an old carbine with KIDD internals/trigger, Boyds stock that is bedded, and Whistle Pig accu-light barrel. The CZ 455 has the WP accu-light barrel, yo dave trigger kit, and a McRee precision chassis. Both Rifles have Vortex PST 5-25 gen2 scopes.

lazarus · Oct 3, 2019

PoPo3 said:
I could be wrong here, but outside 100 yards, I think you are at the mercy of the ammunition. Most of it falls apart when it comes to accuracy after 100. I have a Ruger 10/22 that consistently shoots sub moa at 50 yards, sometimes at 100, and almost never at 200. And by consistently sub moa at 50, I’m talking in the .3” grouping.

In late on this thread, but I think the issue there is wind drift and other effects. If you are firing subs, that's a LONG flight time to 200yds on a light bullet.

A 40gr 1050fps subsonic 22lr has a wind deflection of over 2 1/2 inches at 200yds...from a TWO mph crosswind.

The slightest breeze at 200yds is going to toss subsonic bullets all over the place for a 22lr. A 45gr would of course do a fair amount better, but still going to be tossed around.

Pinecone · Oct 3, 2019

Being tossed around due to weight of the bullet has nothing to do with it.

It is all based on time of flight.

Heavier bullets tend to have a higher BC, so maintain their velocity, therefore shorter time of flight.

Educate Me on Sub MOA .22lr

The #1 community for Gun Owners of the Northeast

Member Benefits:

Ultimate Member

Active Member

Ultimate Member

Ultimate Member

MD Wear&Carry Instructor

Active Member

Ultimate Member

piled higher and deeper

Ultimate Member

Member

Ultimate Member

Ultimate Member

MD Wear&Carry Instructor

Member

MD Wear&Carry Instructor

Competition Shooter

Grumpy Old Man

Ultimate Member

Ultimate Member

Ultimate Member

Users who are viewing this thread

Log in

Forum statistics