a few reloading questions

I did a small amount of reloading junk ammo on a single stage many years ago, but I'm new to the turret press.

1) do you need to trim cases to the same length for long range shooting? I heard you do for consistency.

2) do you need to trim at exact max trim length (a lot of my cases happen to be), or just when you go over?

3) being new to the turret press, I feel like it cuts out some steps I'm used to. For example, you don't really clean primer pockets or fully inspect like you do with a single stage. Any concerns here?

4) best cheap way to clean cases? I was going to skip this step but since I can a suppressor they are caked in carbon with the semiauto.

5) my reloading manual says crimping degrades accuracy and shouldnt be done unless there is a cannelure, however I've seen factory crimped ammo on bullets with no cannelure. what's the truth here?

6) also, what's a good trimmer? I just have one of those cheap Lee hand trimmers.

Key words "Long Range" shooting
and what are your goals? expectations,
of course what round are you using for long range.?
Rig? Range < 1k, > 1k alot of variables here...

1. Yes...consistency
2. Yes....Trim-to Length
3. Inspection is important for signs of
case failure. also it helps to keep track
of number of reloads per case. Primer
pockets yes and no..it depends, practice
rounds, generally don't but, when cleaning
cases.
4. Clean cases, some use Wet tumbling others
dry either with corn cob or walnut shells (lizard
litter) wet tumbling seems the better option you
can build one or buy one, went the build root here.
also if you deprime before hand it takes care of the
primer pockets question No.3 currently use a Mighty
Armory decapping die (works great)
5. crimping ..it does deform the bullet if to much
some do crimp a lot don't. once again depending on
application
6. "good case trimmer" Giraud (powered) or the tri-way
powered by drill or attach a motor to it (DIY) got the
manual ones also, Lyman, Forster..

For the tumbler you can use 6" or 8" PVC pipe, motor, pillar
bearings, some steel rod, etc.. here's his plans, works great
modify as needed ....
https://forums.brianenos.com/topic/130815-my-home-built-wet-tumbler/

All the above depends on how much you are going to shoot
in the long range, practice, etc. If I may, pick up a Berger
Bullets manual or read some Bryan Litz material. Also I'm sure
E. Shell will provide more detailed inormation, knowledge, than I.

He is some reading if needed:
http://www.accuratereloading.com/crimping.html
http://forum.accurateshooter.com/threads/crimping-for-accuracy.3863470/
https://forum.snipershide.com/forums/sniper-s-hide-reloading/
http://www.accurateshooter.com/technical-articles/reloading/complete-precision-case-prep/
http://precisionrifleblog.com/2018/10/19/extreme-long-range-tips-4-the-less-technical-challenges/


And I still reload on my RCBS Rock Chuckers, Redding Big Boss II
and some other single stage presses, 6.5 CM,.308, 300WM, 338 LM

-Rock

What is your goal for reloading?
- maximize precision?
- make low-cost ammo?
- something else?
The amount of effort and reloading procedures required will vary considerably depending on what you intend for the ammo.

Good answers, but I would supplement the info as below:

Rockzilla said:

Key words "Long Range" shooting
and what are your goals? expectations,
of course what round are you using for long range.?
Rig? Range < 1k, > 1k alot of variables here...

Click to expand...

Good questions, although little would change in the answers below unless it was the powder type.

1. Yes...consistency

Click to expand...

Yes, but to a lesser extent than for safety. Monitoring case length and trimming should be a routine step in handloading.

2. Yes....Trim-to Length

Click to expand...

Yup. The "Trim To" length is your target for trimming. Typical "Trim To" length in the manuals is 0.010" below maximum. This gives you some breathing room and several firings before cases stretch enough to require trimming again. If you trim to maximum length, you will have to trim every time to keep them at, or just under, max. Maximum length is the point at which pressure problem suddenly arise and if your rifle chamber is minimum length, you will start jamming the case mouth into the bullet as soon as it goes too long, causing pressure excursions. By using the "Trim To" spec, you develop a safety margin.

3. Inspection is important for signs of case failure. also it helps to keep track of number of reloads per case.

Click to expand...

This is very true, and one of the reasons I do not load precision ammo on my Dillon 650. You should look at, feel and listen to (cracked cases have a peculiar sound) your brass at each operation.

Primer pockets yes and no..it depends, practice rounds, generally don't but, when cleaning cases.

Click to expand...

I'd agree that practice rounds don;t usually need the pockets cleaned. Primer fouling generally accumulates to a certain point and levels off. As long as the primers in short range practice ammo or pistol ammo seat fully, the pockets are GTG. With precision ammo, I would clean them each time to ensure the primers are bottomed out properly in hopes of providing more consistent ignition.

4. Clean cases, some use Wet tumbling others dry either with corn cob or walnut shells (lizard litter) wet tumbling seems the better option you can build one or buy one, went the build root here.also if you deprime before hand it takes care of the primer pockets question No.3 currently use a Mighty Armory decapping die (works great)

Click to expand...

I do pretty much the same thing - decap, clean, then size. I run my fired brass through a dry tumbler for a little while (time depends on how fresh the media is) to get the worst of it and to removed grit from the field. A little bit of gas/carbon stain is OK, but if you want to get it off as much as you can, lightly wipe the case with solvent (or carb cleaner) before dropping it into the tumbler. Don't overdo the solvent, it's not friendly to brass and it shouldn't go inside the case at all. If you are looking to improve the appearance of the brass, you can tumble twice: 1st to remove range dirt and most of the discoloration, then a 2nd time after sizing, to remove what has been dislodged and to remove the case lube.

5. crimping ..it does deform the bullet if to much some do crimp a lot don't. once again depending on application

Click to expand...

Agreed, and it's just one more thing to be inconsistent if not properly managed. If you are not using a semi-auto, we don't even need to discuss it - don't bother. Unless you can prove that you need a crimp, I'd stay away due to the reason listed by Rockzilla, plus crimping means that your cases need to be checked and probably trimmed at every firing. A consistent crimp depends on consistent case length. Military ammunition for semi-autos is crimped, but they have WAY different handling, and accuracy, requirements. Most sizing dies, used with most brass types, delivers enough neck tension that a crimp usually isn't required. I load a lot of match ammo for my ARs and don't crimp. The big danger is driving the bullet back into the case during cycling and causing pressures to spike. If you test cycle your ammo through the gun (do not fire your rifle indoors) a few times and the overall length does not change, you don't need a crimp for that particular combination of case. bullet and rifle.

6. "good case trimmer" Giraud (powered) or the tri-way powered by drill or attach a motor to it (DIY) got the manual ones also, Lyman, Forster.

Click to expand...

I hate trimming and do everything I can to reduce the frequency, especially in setting my sizing dies. Giraud is the Cadillac of trimmers and to have one (or two) with a cartridge guide and cutter set up for every cartridge I reload would be at the top of my MegaMillions list.

Barring the Giraud, I would look for one like the Forster, in which you can use a drill/screw gun to take some of the drudgery out of it.

...And I still reload on my RCBS Rock Chuckers, Redding Big Boss II and some other single stage presses, 6.5 CM,.308, 300WM, 338 LM

Click to expand...

I load almost everything on a single stage press myself. I used a RockChucker for shorter cases and the Redding UltraMax for longer cases. I use the Dillon for pistol ammo and .223 blasting ammo.

I don't use the turret press for long range/precision ammo due to the following:
1) Overall handling is reduced, increasing my chances of loading a defective case. A barely visible (even if you look right at it) cracked neck will drop your bullet a foot or two at 1k.
2) I clean primer pockets on precision ammo.
3) I want to measure and possibly trim between sizing and charging.
4) I want to remove case lube between sizing and charging.
5) Powders well suited to long range rifle cases do not usually meter well.
6) I like to weight charges for precision ammo, due to being close to maximum and due to wanting to get the charge weights within about 0.2 to 0.3 grains of each other. If you are in the OCW, even that much variation will not take you out of the bullseye.

When I load ammo for handguns and .223s, I do use the turret press and I will:
1) Clean and inspect cases prior to staging them for the machine.
2) Check length at this time as well, and if it is getting close to needing a trim, it goes into a different bucket for trimming later.
3) Not worry about primer pocket cleaning.
4) Remove most of the case lube (if lube was even required) by rolling the loaded ammo in a towel.
5) Use ball or other fine grained powders that meter well.

No matter what tool I use for handloading, I always inspect each loaded round to make sure everything looks right and to ensure the primer is seated flush or below the case head.

Good advice already offered.

"Need" is somewhat a subjective thing in reloading. You don't "need" to clean primer pockets, or trim after every firing (unless they are out of SAAMI spec ). Can those things help consistency? A little...the bigger question is it worth the effort?

The best answer is to ask what are your goals and what are your shooting capabilities? Long range is what? For some that's more than 100 yds, for others it is 800 - 1200 yds.

You can fall into a rabbit hole of case prep work to hypothetically squeeze out every last possible ounce of consistency...but if your skills at shooting are not capable of taking advantage of that work...it's just wasted effort and won't translate into increased accuracy.

You'll find that there really isn't a "one best method" for the reloading process. A lot of good reloaders do things a bit differently. That said, there are a couple of things you have to do to stay safe. FWIW, my opinion on your questions working backwards.

6) Agree that the Giraud is probably the cream de la creme. Case prep is a skull drag...but even the Lee Zip trim coupled with their 3 jaw chuck helps speed things up a bit. If you can afford the Giraud, then treat yourself. It'll speed things up a lot. If you're on a super tight budget, use the Lee 3 jaw chuck and put it in a cordless drill. You can actually move through some cases pretty quickly with that inexpensive piece of gear.

This goes to the "need" to trim for long range. Again, so long as the case falls in spec, you don't "need" to trim them all to length. Will it help with some consistency? Yes, it will help a bit...but to be honest there are other things that will effect that more than length. More on that in a sec.

FWIW, I trim them all to a consistent length.

5) Bolt gun or auto loader? Two thing to consider...1) safety issue when using an auto loader. Crimped ammunition helps ensure that the bullet will stay in the neck when the bolt drives home and aggressively chambers the round. Depending on the neck tension you set, this probably isn't going to be a problem, even with a Garand. If you set your tension very light, you might want to ensure all your auto loaded ammo is crimped. 2) Crimping may or may not help uniform the neck tension and bring more consistency in your ammo. I personally think that the deformation of the bullet would offset any potential gain here and quite frankly I'm dubious that crimping would make things more uniform when the bullet releases...if anything it makes sense that it would do the opposite. It definitely will deform your bullet. If you're only shooting a couple of hundred yards, you'd probably not even notice. Over 600 yds and it's a problem.

I never crimp my reloads.

4) Cleaning cases is another "you don't need to do it,"... sort of. It will do NOTHING in improving your accuracy. It will however potentially protect your dies and more importantly let you see if you have any case issues (split necks, case deformations, etc). How clean do you need them? Just clean enough to be able to inspect them and make sure they don't have grit on them. Anything more than that is just aesthetics. That said, I like shiny brass just as much as the next guy.

I'm in the vibratory tumbler, keep it simple and inexpensive, camp. If primer pockets are a concern (more on that in a sec too), then either sonic cleaners or wet tumbling work really well to get them squeeky clean and super shiny.

Cheapest way (since you asked), take a rag and hand clean them enough to be able to get the general grit/grim off and be able to visually inspect them. If you go the way of the Lee 3 jaw chuck in the cordless drill, after you trim them to length, take some steel wool and hit them lightly whilst they spin. That'll take off any carbon grime that the rag wasn't able to. Fast...not at all...but cheap

3) If you start with non-prepped brass, then yes the Turret press can take out some of the brass prep process. Again though, how much of the steps being taken out are critical? Depends on your goals. Most will do brass prep prior to reloading on a turret press...so the brass will already be deprimed, trimmed to length, chamfered, cleaned before you start. Turret presses will still make ammo faster than a single stage.

Concerns? Safety wise I'd say my concern would be less case inspection. Accuracy wise...depends.

1 & 2) I'll address both questions and then some. What you're taking about is taking steps to decrease the variability between case to case to increase your ammo's consistency...and thus improve your accuracy. Case length uniformity (outside of ensuring they are in SAAMI spec) and cleaning primer pockets are two of many steps people go through to chase the bug holes. Not all steps have the same payoff however. Basically, I'd put the ammo consistency into three major buckets, and list in order of what makes the difference the steps you can take to chase uniformity (HIGHLY subjective the importance and order).

A) Consistent propellant ignition behind the bullet:
a. Getting the same amount of powder case to case...includes trickling or buying a very consistent powder dropper. Generally, ball powders meter better than extruded powders if you're not trickling. I use a RCBS Chargemaster...actually three since I'm impatient. In regards to time spent...probably one of the highest pay offs in re: consistency.
b. Sorting brass by case volume - more than just weighing / sorting brass (although that's better than nothing). The best way would be to fill each case with water and then weigh the water. Time consuming. I don't do this. I sort my match brass by weight. Better than nothing, and combined with a very consistent powder measure I think are the two biggest contributors to accuracy gains.
c. Uniform your flash holes and take off any punch tabs. Most brass flash holes are punched. Expensive brass like Lapua is drilled (so this isn't necessary), but with punched flash holes sometimes a little tab is left inside the brass. This makes for slightly inconsistent powder ignition. You can get a little tool (like a drill bit) that will uniform the flash hole and take off that tab if it's there. Velocities actually do become more consistent if you take this step...with lower quality brass. If you shoot Lapua brass ignore this. If you're not a match shooter, ignore this. I do this for my match brass...only need to do it once.
d. Uniform your primer pockets. You can get a tool that will ensure the primer pockets are all of uniform depth. Probably little to no effect in my opinion. I do it for my match brass because...well I'm obsessed. Honestly though, the gains are probably so small I doubt it's worth it.
e. Cleaning your primer pockets. I don't do it, other than what happens when I tumble. I don't think it's worth the time. If I thought it was, I'd probably upgrade to getting a wet tumbler.

B) Related to A, but slightly different is consistent neck tension. Pressures are effected a little bit due to how tightly the bullet is being held (and therefore inconsistent velocity)
a. Crimping. I believe that it introduces inconsistencies in neck tension and bullet concentricity, and therefore I wouldn't do it if long range shooting is the goal.
b. Annealing - heating your brass necks to take out any work hardening - helps make them consistent. The more work hardened the brass, the grippier it is. Annealing will extend the brass life (giving you more times you can fire it before you need to toss it) and also make them all consistent.
c. Expensive dies - Bushing dies allow the reloader to adjust the neck tension they use. Personally, I feel that as long as the tension is consistent (which I believe has more to do with consistent brass width) then accuracy gains are questionable...but if you tweak your brass so that it is worked less then it will definitely last longer. So, that's a benefit and you may find you make more consistent ammo too.
d. Trimming to a consistent length. The more brass that is in contact with the bullet, the more tension you have. Inconsistency in length can translate to inconsistency in bullet release, which translates into inconsistent velocities. Not a problem in general for ranges below 600 yds, exponentially more of a problem beyond. If they are match reloads, take the time to trim to a consistent length.

C. Concentricity: Or making sure that the axis of the round is consistent from primer to point of the bullet, and aligned with the axis of the barrel. Most brass isn't very uniform in width. Sometimes as much as by as much as .004 to .006 inches. Doesn't sound like a lot, but that difference means that one side of the brass will be "grippier" than the other. When the bullet gets released, it isn't spinning perfectly on it's axis when it enters the rifling of the barrel. It's under a lot of pressure, so it deforms (ever so slightly) to fit...and that deformation becomes more and more problematic at range. You won't notice it unless it's REALLY extreme for a couple of hundred yards, but out at 800 - 900 yds, it's very noticeable. You can go crazy and spend a small fortune chasing .000 runout. Generally speaking, if you have the tool to measure it, for match loads you're going for .000 to .002 total indicated runout.
a. Brass quality...biggest factor in reducing problems here (and in case volume). Lapua brass is good out of the box.
b. Fixing inconsistent neck width can be done by neck turning and/or reaming. I do this for my match brass. You can buy expensive tools to do it, or you can just buy expensive brass like Lapua. Either way, you're spending money.
c. Die quality: particularly your seating die. Dies that support the bullet when it gets introduced into the neck will be less likely to push the bullet in on a slight angle and introduce cant. If your brass sucks and has a .004 difference in width...then the most expensive die in the world isn't going to give you .000 - .002 total indicated runout.
d. Some dies, like the Lee collet die produce very concentric ammo, however it still doesn't help that most brass has inconsistent width, and therefore inconsistent neck tension around it's circumference.

D) Length of seating in relation to your chamber. Many reloaders will tweak the overall length (or better length to the ojive of the bullet) to tweak the amount of "jump" your bullet makes from case to engaging the rifling. Some bullets like very little jump, some like more. It takes some playing around with to fine tune...but it does make a big difference to matching ammo to rifle. Some things to consider though...
a. If you're reloading for an autoloader, I wouldn't reload beyond SAAMI spec
b. If you're planning on using this ammo for more than one rifle, I wouldn't reload beyond SAAMI spec either.

I'm sure I've left off a few optional steps and tricks, but I'm tired of tapping on the keyboard.

Yeah, another 20 years and I will be able to answer reloading questions. wait ... unless the elections go wrong.

I re-read the first post , and didn't see " long range " mentioned . Just an indirect goal of being other than " Junk ammo " . The OP needs to further enlighten as to his expectations , and desired time invested vs accuracy improvement ratio .

In regards to perspective on question #3 - If the rifle is capable , the bullets are otherwise capable , and the rest of dimensions don't have tolerence stacking in a bad way, the simplified turret procedure should be capable of more or less MOA @ 100yd . Is that accurate or not accurate ? Subjective depending on needs and expectations .

Forgot these, even though not on the OP list...

7. Powder measure....
This is one where you can go for what works or what
is consistent, Older Lyman 55, RCBS Duo-measure,
RCBS Uniflow, Redding, or top end Harrell's, some
work good with extruded powders others don't once
again you must be consistent in how you throw the
charges, some "double tap" with they hit the stops
at the end of each stroke, but for long range,you
are more than likely weighing each charge.

8. Scale there is a debate here, digital vs beam
old school here old Ohaus 10-10, RCBS 10-10,
Lyman M5's, basically the same scale "Ohaus"
have most "tuned" by Scott Parker. Then have
digital but use it as a "spot check" and if I use
it, the beam scale verifies....

Now just to touch on this..

Same lot numbers on bullets,powder,primers..


you can have the best "rig", the best ammo
if the operator is not in his / her groove or zone
it means nothing..... discipline...


-Rock

Great replies guys

To answer a few questions, my goals are to make ammo comparable to the expensive match grade stuff I buy. I will be shooting up to 1000y, but mostly 600-900. I'm about a 1MOA shooter, and happy with it. What I don't want is to have ammo that is worse than factory match.

I also will be loading junk ammo for semi-auto calibers, but that's less of a concern as it shouldn't be as tedious.

I guess I should get a good trimmer and trim everything to the same length. Until it arrives I may just load whatever I have in SAAMI spec just to get the hang of reloading again.

All good stuff here, but your biggest advantage over both cheap ammo and even expensive "match" ammo will be the ability to tune your load to your rifle. Many of the above parameters will pale in comparison to finding a load that works for your rifle(s). So on top of all the stuff here, add in the task of tuning. And don't dis that semi-auto . . . a good tuned load in a good rifle can be seriously precise.

FYI - many years ago I took an entire day to compare three powder measures. One was a $39 Hornady, one an RCBS (if I remember) and one an expensive Harrell's BR measure. I threw hundreds of charges of multiple powder types and carefully weighed each charge. Every time, every powder type, the cheap Hornady unit outperformed by a significant margin. I sold the Harrell's and never looked back.

KRC said:

All good stuff here, but your biggest advantage over both cheap ammo and even expensive "match" ammo will be the ability to tune your load to your rifle. Many of the above parameters will pale in comparison to finding a load that works for your rifle(s). So on top of all the stuff here, add in the task of tuning. And don't dis that semi-auto . . . a good tuned load in a good rifle can be seriously precise.

FYI - many years ago I took an entire day to compare three powder measures. One was a $39 Hornady, one an RCBS (if I remember) and one an expensive Harrell's BR measure. I threw hundreds of charges of multiple powder types and carefully weighed each charge. Every time, every powder type, the cheap Hornady unit outperformed by a significant margin. I sold the Harrell's and never looked back.

Click to expand...

The right “blasting” ammo load can indeed be precise! Surprisingly so, at least to me.

My AR “blasting” ammo incorporates a 55 grain Hornady soft point bullet, which I’ve repeatedly found will significantly outshoot both FMJ reloads and any factory brands of FMJ in my rifles. The loads cost me 22 cents apiece. Now one can certainly argue that thats not too substantial a price cut at present, compared to today’s bulk ammo pricing. But be that as it may, it is also night and day more precise than what I can buy. And for me at least, that’s what makes the time and effort to load it absolutely worthwhile.

Another question here...

Should you measure the case after decap and resize? I did some testing and see that my cases do grow slightly after the resizing.

I see some people running a cartridge through all turret steps back to back and it would seem impossible to account for this if you're doing it that way.

OLM-Medic said:

Another question here...

Should you measure the case after decap and resize? I did some testing and see that my cases do grow slightly after the resizing.

I see some people running a cartridge through all turret steps back to back and it would seem impossible to account for this if you're doing it that way.

Click to expand...

Case measurement should ideally be done after resizing. Cases do indeed stretch during resizing as you correctly note.

as mentioned above after resizing,
which way are you resizing, Full length,
Neck size only, or the "bushing way"?

now with just neck sizing, it in some cases
may create a little resistance when trying to
close the bolt..we can get into "bumping"
the shoulder back also..

Gas gun or Bolt?

Neck size if firing in same gun (bolt)
you will have to work up a load that gives
the best accuracy with bullet,powder,primer,
COAL (bullet seating depth) for the firearm
that you intend to shoot it out of. Same make,
models and calibers don't aways shoot the
same, you will have to find that "sweet spot"
for that firearm. As a note on bullets "ogive"
some reading here:
http://www.bergerbullets.com/effect...coal-and-cartridge-base-to-ogive-cbto-part-2/


an old saying don't over think the simple
solutions...
advice ,work with one variable at a time
change one not 2 or 3 or 4 just one, it
will save some headaches in the long run.
your brain and head will thank you...


-Rock

OLM-Medic said:

Another question here...

Should you measure the case after decap and resize? I did some testing and see that my cases do grow slightly after the resizing.

I see some people running a cartridge through all turret steps back to back and it would seem impossible to account for this if you're doing it that way.

Click to expand...

I think you'll find that there is a balancing act that goes on in reloading. The turret press can significantly improve the speed of your reloading, but it comes at a cost. Not being able to separate some of the case prep processes is one of them.

Of course you could always separate the linkage and just use it as a single stage...but that negates the primary value of the turret press which is increased speed in ammo production.

Another is that by it's design, the Lee turret press will have some give between the die holder plate and the body of the press. Not a lot, but enough to make it a bit hard eliminate as much runout as what you can on a single stage press. People shim the plate at half the value of the "slop" to minimize the problem, but by nature a turret press is generally a little less precise. Faster to produce ammo...but looser tolerances.

In regards to trimming before or after resizing...I'm going to disagree with the norm. Again, it's a balancing act. Yes, the cases will grow a bit after you resize. If you trim below the max length, that's not a problem. Will they grow inconsistently...maybe a tiny little bit. However, the process of trimming will knock your neck concentricity off a bit depending on the tool that you're using. If the neck isn't concentric, then the ammo won't be. The negative effect on non concentric ammo is far far greater than the tiny negative effect of a minuscule difference in case length IMHO.

Like I said before though...what's kinda neat about this hobby is that isn't a "one way" to do things. While there are a few things that must be done in order to ensure safety...there is a LOT of room for experimentation.

Try out a couple of things and let us know the results.

BTW, I reloaded on a Lee turret with basic Lee dies for about 15 years, and it can produce some extremely accurate ammo (for me a touch under MOA) with just being selective with bullet choice and powder.

I did switch to a Forrester CoAx single stage for my rifle ammo eventually though, and it produces some ridiculously accurate ammo with Forrester dies. When you then tune that load to a specific rifle, that's when magic happens.

I know that EventHorizon will be here shortly extolling the virtues of the Dillon brand, and those presses will also produce amazing ammo AND at higher volume per time spent.

At some point, you sort of reach the law of diminishing returns where the time and money spent tweaking your brass prep procedure and buying new tools would be better spent buying better components and behind a rifle.

KRC said:

FYI - many years ago I took an entire day to compare three powder measures. One was a $39 Hornady, one an RCBS (if I remember) and one an expensive Harrell's BR measure. I threw hundreds of charges of multiple powder types and carefully weighed each charge. Every time, every powder type, the cheap Hornady unit outperformed by a significant margin. I sold the Harrell's and never looked back.

Click to expand...

Great lesson here, more expensive doesn't necessarily mean not as effective. Except in optics lol.

Another good trimmer is the WFT (World's Finest Trimmer). IIRC, the WFT II is the preferred one. Like the Giraud, it indexes off the shoulder, so need to trim AFTER sizing.

Many long range shooters full length resize, but only set the shoulder back 1 - 2 thousands. Even in the same rifle, you can have issues with neck sizing only. The chamber might not be totally round, or may have a banana shape.

Major03 said:

In regards to trimming before or after resizing...I'm going to disagree with the norm. Again, it's a balancing act. Yes, the cases will grow a bit after you resize. If you trim below the max length, that's not a problem. Will they grow inconsistently...maybe a tiny little bit. However, the process of trimming will knock your neck concentricity off a bit depending on the tool that you're using. If the neck isn't concentric, then the ammo won't be. The negative effect on non concentric ammo is far far greater than the tiny negative effect of a minuscule difference in case length IMHO.

Click to expand...

And if your shooting requires concern about runout, Hornady will happily sell you a (~$110) tool to measure and correct it. Does anyone here have experience with this tool?

Pinecone said:

Another good trimmer is the WFT (World's Finest Trimmer). IIRC, the WFT II is the preferred one. Like the Giraud, it indexes off the shoulder, so need to trim AFTER sizing.

Many long range shooters full length resize, but only set the shoulder back 1 - 2 thousands. Even in the same rifle, you can have issues with neck sizing only. The chamber might not be totally round, or may have a banana shape.

Click to expand...

The WFT is cartridge specific. The newer model WFTII uses trim chamber inserts that will in some cases cover entire case families, if you buy carefully. For example, a .308 Winchester insert will also cover your 7mm-08 Remington, 260 Remington, and .243 Winchester trim chores. Per manufacturer Little Crow, order the largest chambering of the family you want to trim. This chart will guide you. I have sometimes thought that you sort of have to know that this chart exists, because some sellers don't make it obvious. But buying by family will save you some money if you're shooting multiple examples of the same family.

https://littlecrowgunworks.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/wft-Cross-Reference.pdf?v=7516fd43adaa


Be aware also that neither trimmer model handles straight wall cartridges. All available options work by indexing to a case shoulder, so if you're looking to trim straight wall cartridges, you're going to need another option.

Make sure to be aware also that the WFTII (which uses the inserts) requires a 1/2 inch chuck to drive it. The original single cartridge specific WFT requires a 3/8 inch chuck.

The reason for case trimming is to prevent over pressure from a long case neck jamming into the rifling.

You can trim before you size. Measure some cases, then size. See how much they grow. This will tell you how much to trim before you size to get the right length. Some case makes may vary and the number of times sized may also change a bit as the brass hardens from being worked. I long ago quit using the sizer ball and now use a pistol type second die to open the case neck. This may or may not effect your accuracy.

One place to check for precision loads is with the benchrest crowd. With 200 cases they might get 20 that meets their specs. They also use tuned actions and special barrels. It is a whole science.