Pocket pistols. Where it all began.

A1Uni · Sep 6, 2016

Minuteman said:
Wow, that's amazingly tiny. Has to be one of the worlds smallest pistols.

Many a cop carried one of these in their pocket 'back in the day':

Many (older) cops still do carry the venerable Model 36, Chief's Special. We sell a lot of them, and Smith is still knocking them out brand-new.

highli99 · Sep 6, 2016

Minuteman said:
Deringer.

Yes, I did spell that correctly.

You start great threads. I'm going to enjoy this one. Mouse guns are awesome. One day i'll own a Colt hammerless.

cb51 · Sep 7, 2016

Since moving to Texas from Maryland, I've found a new love of mouse guns. This summer was hot as hell in july and August, and carrying a gun is a PITA!

Lightweight cargo shorts and T-shirt don't conceal even a compact gun very well, so it's a small pocket pistol if anything. Ruger LCP is the outside edge of the envelope. My Glock 26 is too big for comfort. The NAA mini revolvers do well.

I'm guessing that in ages past, people who chose to carry a gun everyday, soon tired of carrying a regular size gun, so the pocket pistol retained a popularity down through many years and generations. The Derringer is still popular today. The Bond arms and American Derringers, as well as the .22 mini revolvers are big sellers here in Texas. I'm guessing that summer carry is very different from winter carry. A mini .22 revolver or Derringer beats a pocket knife and harsh language.

rob-cubed · Sep 7, 2016

K31 said:
Muff pistols?

Women would conceal it in their... muffs. You know, those fuzzy cylindrical things--made of the hide of some scruffy beast--they used to stuff both hands into when it was cold out?

As a small guy the single-stack 9mm is a thing of beauty for CC.

Still the classic SA-only design with no trigger guard is cool. Those percussion-cap versions might be even cooler.

Minuteman · Sep 8, 2016

highli99 said:
You start great threads. I'm going to enjoy this one. Mouse guns are awesome. One day i'll own a Colt hammerless.

Thanks for the hat-tip; several of us diligently try to provide content that keeps MDShooters informative and interesting.

To me the best aspect of a 'pocket pistol' is as a backup to a primary weapon.

It's an essential skill to be able to draw/shoot left handed (26%). Lot's can't do that.

So important to be able to keep your left hand free:

Blaster229 · Sep 8, 2016

To me, a back up to Primary weapon can be holstered right behind that primary weapon.
I guarantee you can draw another weapon that is just behind your primary, faster than you can reload or fumble for your "mouse gun" in a pocket somewhere. And still enjoy the same caliber of goodness if planned right.

highli99 · Sep 8, 2016

I can pull an LCP out of my pocket pretty fast. I've never heard of having 2 holstered pistols but it's an interesting idea.

I've only carried 2 once or twice.

Minuteman · Sep 8, 2016

Blaster229 said:
To me, a back up to Primary weapon can be holstered right behind that primary weapon.
I guarantee you can draw another weapon that is just behind your primary, faster than you can reload or fumble for your "mouse gun" in a pocket somewhere. And still enjoy the same caliber of goodness if planned right.

Expert advice; I've done that.

Mostly just for range trips, but is viable otherwise.

highli99 said:
I can pull an LCP out of my pocket pretty fast. I've never heard of having 2 holstered pistols but it's an interesting idea.

I've only carried 2 once or twice.

LCP barks - no fun. But... could save your life. Train carefully (limited and with gloves).

highli99 · Sep 8, 2016

Minuteman said:
Expert advice; I've done that.

Mostly just for range trips, but is viable otherwise.

LCP barks - no fun. But... could save your life. Train carefully (limited and with gloves).

I agree. The dang thing is so light all the recoil goes right to your hand. I do shoot it pretty often to stay familiar.

My Sig 238 is WAAAAAY better to shoot, and shoot accurately. But my "gambler edition" isn't really a carry candidate. Also the manual of arms would take more training for me since I prefer not to have a saftey on a carry firearm.

moojersey · Sep 8, 2016

I really want a Bond Arms derringer. If only for the nostalgia.

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llkoolkeg · Sep 8, 2016

Zzzzz_man said:
I miss it. I really do. E-4's with 3 years time in grade didn't make jack-sh*t for pay back then but we sure made the most of what we got and the prices on Walthers at the R&G Club couldn't be beat. Being stationed in Germany probably had something to do with that.

I worked a lot with the R&G Club folks as a contractor all throughout the 98th ASG in Bavaria in '99 and besides the weird local national fish & game laws, could have very easily found life there comfortable and happy...and a PPK deal would have certainly smoothed my transition.

Minuteman · Sep 19, 2016

Speaking of the .380 as a possible pocket pistol...

I know several folks that wouldn't carry one at all, for a few reasons. Just the other day, was having a beer with a member/friend here, and he said that a .32 had nearly all of the performance as a .380, but about half the recoil.

I have no data, never considered a .32 a viable defense caliber, no reason to doubt him. Anyone care to elaborate or have an opinion?

cb51 · Sep 19, 2016

Minuteman said:
Speaking of the .380 as a possible pocket pistol...

I know several folks that wouldn't carry one at all, for a few reasons. Just the other day, was having a beer with a member/friend here, and he said that a .32 had nearly all of the performance as a .380, but about half the recoil.

I have no data, never considered a .32 a viable defense caliber, no reason to doubt him. Anyone care to elaborate or have an opinion?

We live in an age of excess spurred on by trade/hobby magazines that are nothing but whored to the advertisers. Gun magazines are no exception. As a result, there is sooo much bullhocky being parroted by gun people that you need the GoodyeAr blimp to get above it all.

Until fairly late in the 20th century, the .32acp was an accepted round for both self defense, and in some cases, offensive use. Durring WW2, O.S.S. personel were dropped into German occupied France, and one of the overwhelmingly popular pistols was the flat little Colt .32 auto. Many experienced O.S.S. agents swore the .32acp was effective at killing an enemy Gestapo that tried to apprehend them.

Lots pod people have been killed by the so called 'small calibers'. I do personally know of one guy that was dropped with a single shot from a .25 Raven. Hit him right in the chest where it counted.

If it's a gun and shoots a bullet capable of penetrating the chest wall, be afraid of it. Your heart won't care if it's a quarter inch hole or a three eights hole in it when it stops working.

Mdeng · Sep 19, 2016

A1Uniform said:
Many (older) cops still do carry the venerable Model 36, Chief's Special. We sell a lot of them, and Smith is still knocking them out brand-new.

Do you have any in stock? Price?

Minuteman · Sep 19, 2016

cb51 said:
We live in an age of excess spurred on by trade/hobby magazines that are nothing but whored to the advertisers. Gun magazines are no exception. As a result, there is sooo much bullhocky being parroted by gun people that you need the GoodyeAr blimp to get above it all.

Until fairly late in the 20th century, the .32acp was an accepted round for both self defense, and in some cases, offensive use. Durring WW2, O.S.S. personel were dropped into German occupied France, and one of the overwhelmingly popular pistols was the flat little Colt .32 auto. Many experienced O.S.S. agents swore the .32acp was effective at killing an enemy Gestapo that tried to apprehend them.

Lots pod people have been killed by the so called 'small calibers'. I do personally know of one guy that was dropped with a single shot from a .25 Raven. Hit him right in the chest where it counted.

If it's a gun and shoots a bullet capable of penetrating the chest wall, be afraid of it. Your heart won't care if it's a quarter inch hole or a three eights hole in it when it stops working.

Thanks for the history. This is something I know very little about. My general understanding is that the police didn't typically carry guns, and when they did, it was largely concealed and only used for extreme selfdefense, not so much used to threaten a perpetrator to 'stop' and give themselves up. I also recalled that the .32 was a popular caliber with police, and the .38SPL was considered a big move up in firepower, as it was again when the police moved up to .357mag and later jumped to semiautomatics. A lot of this was confirmed here: http://www.guns.com/2011/06/30/a-quick-history-of-americas-police-sidearms/

It was pretty much after the 1986 Miami shootout that the police revisited calibers, first flirting with 10mm, then quickly settling on the .40 as the preferred police caliber; from then until just recently (like last year or so); police are moving in full measure to 9mm for many reasons. Mostly because of the lower recoil and hence more officers can shoot it better, it's also cheaper ammo and less abuse on the guns (bonus, you get another round or two, with almost no loss in performance). And this is where we are today and headed tomorrow with police pistols - 9mm.

The military was a different story. The military used revolvers of various calibers, mostly .45 until it selected and extensively used the 1911 (.45ACP) right up to about ~1986. With only a few exceptions (most notably special operations which stayed with the .45ACP), the military stayed with and still uses the NATO standard 9mm. So we've come full circle with military and police settling largely on one caliber - 9mm. http://www.guns.com/2011/06/30/a-quick-history-of-americas-police-sidearms/

Contrary to what classic western movies would have you believe, the 'wild west' was actually pretty tame. And just like today, those civilians that used pistols for self defense generally carried popular military/police pistols. The mouse gun of the era was a deringer. Even military special agents back in the day carried them for very deep cover pistols; General McAuthor carried one on special assignment as a young officer.

cb51 · Sep 21, 2016

Minuteman said:
Thanks for the history. This is something I know very little about. My general understanding is that the police didn't typically carry guns, and when they did, it was largely concealed and only used for extreme selfdefense, not so much used to threaten a perpetrator to 'stop' and give themselves up. I also recalled that the .32 was a popular caliber with police, and the .38SPL was considered a big move up in firepower, as it was again when the police moved up to .357mag and later jumped to semiautomatics. A lot of this was confirmed here: http://www.guns.com/2011/06/30/a-quick-history-of-americas-police-sidearms/

It was pretty much after the 1986 Miami shootout that the police revisited calibers, first flirting with 10mm, then quickly settling on the .40 as the preferred police caliber; from then until just recently (like last year or so); police are moving in full measure to 9mm for many reasons. Mostly because of the lower recoil and hence more officers can shoot it better, it's also cheaper ammo and less abuse on the guns (bonus, you get another round or two, with almost no loss in performance). And this is where we are today and headed tomorrow with police pistols - 9mm.

The military was a different story. The military used revolvers of various calibers, mostly .45 until it selected and extensively used the 1911 (.45ACP) right up to about ~1986. With only a few exceptions (most notably special operations which stayed with the .45ACP), the military stayed with and still uses the NATO standard 9mm. So we've come full circle with military and police settling largely on one caliber - 9mm. http://www.guns.com/2011/06/30/a-quick-history-of-americas-police-sidearms/

Contrary to what classic western movies would have you believe, the 'wild west' was actually pretty tame. And just like today, those civilians that used pistols for self defense generally carried popular military/police pistols. The mouse gun of the era was a deringer. Even military special agents back in the day carried them for very deep cover pistols; General McAuthor carried one on special assignment as a young officer.

You bring up very good points of history. After the Miami shootout, the feds were looking for an excuse for the poor performance of the agents, and put part of the blame on the gun. The fact is, a 9mm in a vital area is just as deadly as a .45 or .40 in a vital area. By the same token, poor shooting with any gun is not going to get any award except a nice headstone. The human heart stops functioning when it gets a hole in it. Doesn't matter if it's a quarter inch or a half inch.

It's pretty well acknowledged that John Mosses Browning was a real genius when it came to guns. His 'ma deuce' and 1911 designed are still going stung a century later. He designed the .25 auto round just for a small self defense gun. He looked at the parameters of just what was needed. He went for the center fire primer for reliable ignition over the .22 rimfire, and a full metal jacket for the penetration a small caliber needs. They didn't have the outlandish F.B.I requirements of penetration back then, and human physiology hasn't changed much. The heart is only 4 to 5 inches in, and the liver is about 5 to 6 inches. The brian, an instant stop, is just past the forehead, so once a bullet gets past that, it's lights out. Press secretary James Brady survived only because they were a few minutes from one of the best shock trauma centers in D.C. and as it was, he never fully recovered from a .22 round in the head.

The small pocket pistols of past decades are still a very good solution for a small concealable gun to carry for personal defense. Nobody wants to get shot, and criminals are cowards by nature. A magazine full of rounds from a small .32 or even a .25 will do the job IF the shooter does his. When I was a kid in the 1950's, the most popular gun for carry was a "snub nosed .38. The next most popular was one of the little .25's that were on the market. The baby Browning, the Berretta Jetfire, and a smattering of European guns like Ortigies and lesser known gun names. They worked very well for their owners. A friend of my parents owned and operated a car wash in D.C. One evening they got attacked by a couple guys, one had a baseball bat, the other a knife. The owner used a .25 auto and shot the knife guy, and the other buy ran off. This was about 1958 or 9. It was legal then to have a gun in D.C. That little .25 saved his life.

Too many people take the gun magazines too seriously.

mopar92 · Sep 21, 2016

Minuteman said:
Thanks for the history. This is something I know very little about. My general understanding is that the police didn't typically carry guns, and when they did, it was largely concealed and only used for extreme selfdefense, not so much used to threaten a perpetrator to 'stop' and give themselves up. I also recalled that the .32 was a popular caliber with police, and the .38SPL was considered a big move up in firepower, as it was again when the police moved up to .357mag and later jumped to semiautomatics. A lot of this was confirmed here: http://www.guns.com/2011/06/30/a-quick-history-of-americas-police-sidearms/

The jump from .38 and .357's was prompted by Bonnie & Clydes widely publicized escapades as the .38 Special lacked power to penetrate the cars of the time (thicker steel). Previous to the .357 Magnums introduction and acceptance the .38 Super was the lawmans best bet against a vehicle (as far as pistols are concerned). Semiauto issuance en masse began after the Miami incident as the previous standard (revolver and loose shells occasionally a speedloader) where determined ineffective after some of the FBI agents lost their guns in the car accident or fumbled with loose rounds reloading leading to their deaths. Also of note, intel at the time on the Special Forces veterans (the suspects) mentioned they where using semi automatics and "assault rifles" (Mini 14 IIRC) and the FBI agents chose not to take long guns.

It was pretty much after the 1986 Miami shootout that the police revisited calibers, first flirting with 10mm, then quickly settling on the .40 as the preferred police caliber; from then until just recently (like last year or so); police are moving in full measure to 9mm for many reasons. Mostly because of the lower recoil and hence more officers can shoot it better, it's also cheaper ammo and less abuse on the guns (bonus, you get another round or two, with almost no loss in performance). And this is where we are today and headed.

The FBI flirted with the 10MM and backed away from it as the recoil and size of the handguns using it proved too large for smaller statured and handed men and women so they reduced the load to (not an official designation) the 10mm "lite" and an enterprising engineer realized that with the empty case capacity they could shorten the case and shove it in a 9mm magazine with no loss in performance.

The military was a different story. The military used revolvers of various calibers, mostly .45 until it selected and extensively used the 1911 (.45ACP) right up to about ~1986. With only a few exceptions (most notably special operations which stayed with the .45ACP), the military stayed with and still uses the NATO standard 9mm. So we've come full circle with military and police settling largely on one caliber - 9mm. http://www.guns.com/2011/06/30/a-quick-history-of-americas-police-sidearms/

Contrary to what classic western movies would have you believe, the 'wild west' was actually pretty tame. And just like today, those civilians that used pistols for self defense generally carried popular military/police pistols. The mouse gun of the era was a deringer. Even military special agents back in the day carried them for very deep cover pistols; General McAuthor carried one on special assignment as a young officer.

Edited to add additional info.

jimbobborg · Sep 21, 2016

Minuteman said:
The military was a different story. The military used revolvers of various calibers, mostly .45 until it selected and extensively used the 1911 (.45ACP) right up to about ~1986.

You seemed to have skipped a few years https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colt_M1892

JHE1956 · Sep 21, 2016

Another note on the history of pocket pistols:

During the second World War, the Wehrmacht found itself with a problem. It had millions of rear echelon and occupation troops scattered from Brittany to the Ukraine and from Norway to Greece. These troops were often billeted among the local populations, which were largely hostile to their uninvited "guests." As such, these occupation forces need to be armed for their own self defense. However, having them carry around service rifles or submachine guns on and off duty was impractical for a number of reasons, not the least of which is that it too many of them would "go missing" and end up in the hands of the local resistance. Standard Issue service pistols (P08 and P38) were needed for front line troops. The solution was the widespread issue of 7.65mm "pocket pistols" to occupation troops: PPK, PP, HSc, Sauer 38H, CZ-27. Beretta 1935, Mauser 1914 and 1934, Astra 300, FN 1922) They were issued with a holster and a single box of bullets (which was expected to last the duration.) It was anticipated that most of these pistols would never actually be used. As such there was no standardization (except for caliber) and little logistical tail (no need for spare parts if they aren't expected to be fired). The caliber was considered sufficient (it was the standard European police caliber, after all), because these were not considered "combat" guns; the value of the pistols was largely in keeping the unarmed population intimidated.

Biggfoot44 · Sep 21, 2016

Don't feel motivated to discuss Miami today.

Meanwhile back at the Wild West :

As noted, for almost all of the localities, during most of the Wild West Era , violent and/ or serious crime far lower than modern area. Even rambunctious cattle drive towns were mainly disorderly conduct or disturbing the peace, with few homicides or felonies generally.

In general a firearm be more commonly used for dealing with pissed off livestock, fractous wildlife, more often than 2 legged varmits.

( Disclaimers - A few mining boom town could get pretty hairy, or a short period of time. What was then considered hell on earth translated to a homicide and violent felony rate about the same as modern day Washington DC or Baltimore .
If you lived within a day's ride of a certain border, Bandits aka Revolutionaries aka Bandits would occasionally raid farms and ranches. The worst of this was 1900-20, depends on your parameters of Wild West)

( The other comparions - During the same era, the crime and murder rates were higher in large east coast cities.

And the saloon shoutouts, duels and feuds common to bad western movies, were far more common in the Southern Appalachians in the same era than out west.)

As to most common handguns, look to the production numbers. Small to medium frame revolvers outsold SAA, Remington, large frame S&W by many times, possibly 10x. ( To be fair, lots of CW surplus pistols remained in use, either in original format, or local gunsmith conversion.)

The prototypical handgun of the era would be a breaktop S&W , in .38S&W. Also include breaktops from utilitarian US mfg H&R, H&A, IJ, and literally uncountable Foreign knockoffs. And solid frame small Colts, lesser US brands and imports. A few Genuine British Weblies of various cal ranging from .22 to some reasonably cals of .44 and .45 flavors, but 10x the cheap knockoffs.

Pocket pistols. Where it all began.

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