Gewehr 98 identification question

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  • lazarus

    Ultimate Member
    Jun 23, 2015
    13,673
    Also I got my first firearm with my shiny new C&R license! A find up at Gun Bunker. $250 our the door. Consignment and wouldn’t budge on price. Looks like the stock was cut down and modified at some point, but it does look like the original stock. Was the barrel shortened? It does have a crown on it and it is a Gewehr 98 according to the receiver engraving. Barrel and receiver match, but I suspect that the bolt doesn’t. The receiver and barrel are ~1000 serial number and the bolt handle is 8600k (k98 bolt? It is turned down like one). Spandau 1913 manufacture.

    The bore is rough as hell. The rifling looks deep and good, but it is corroded pretty bad for the groves. Interestingly the lands actually look clean. I gave up scrubbing it with brushes, patches and JB bore cleaner. Still coming out filthy every time I a run a damp patch through. I was thinking shoot it a bit and run some JB cleaner through it while hot to help take off what is left (as much as is possible). Any suggestions on cleaning the bore further? Any hope it could be an okay shooter? I had inspected the bore before buying and knew it was rough, but at the asking price...I’ve wanted a Mauser and wanted a K98/M98, I haven’t needed it to be completely correct.

    The safety was jammed, probably from corrosion. A few whacks with a rubber mallet got it loose and it is operating correctly in all three positions and doesn’t seem to take excessive force to change positions. The firing pin really goes SNAP (dry fire bad?)

    Also any idea on the rear sight? That doesn’t look like a WWII era K98 rear sight. I am wondering if that matches up with everything else that it was refurbished circa WWII for issue with a K98 bolt and K98 rear sight and probably cut down as well. Though the stock might have been cut down later? Or used as some kind of scout/rear echelon rifle? The cleaning holes were filled at some point and no bayonet mount. No front sight ears either.

    Last questions (for now mind you!), the fire end top piece that fits under the front of the receiver is kind of loose. Any suggestions on tightening it up without significantly modifying the stock? It is held on by fitting under the front receiver and two wires wrapped over/through the wood and the barrel itself (and runs between the barrel and the lower forearm). One of the wires is broken and I could fix that easy enough, but the wood seems to have shrunk over time, so loose under the receiver. A tiny bit of wood filler to fatten it (since it is hidden)?

    The final one, I picked up a box of Yugo surplus ammo while there. 11/1956 manufacture. Any idea if it is coorosive or not? Kind of wanted the stripper clips more than the ammo and it was inexpensive. If it is corrosive, I’d rather just hold on to it as an oddity. I figure the bore is rough enough...I’ll just grab a few boxes of PPU and go to town.

    Mostly I am hoping this is accurate enough to hit a pie plate at 100yds and be a short range deer rifle when I get a wild hair (my Sako forester or AR-15 6.5 grendel are going to stay my main deer rifles for sure, but if it can ethically take game, I like trying to every once in awhile).

    My Yugo M57 should be showing up day after tomorrow also! So excited.

    And thanks!
     

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    Blacksmith101

    Grumpy Old Man
    Jun 22, 2012
    22,154
    For cleaning the bore I have always had the opinion that since the crud was built up over many years using various lots of ammunition with assorted cleaning and preservative products being used in turn the crud is many layers. I also believe some cleaning products work better on one type of fouling and not so good on other layers. So I clean for awhile with JB, then switch to Hoppies, then Kroil, then Break free, Ed's Red, etc. Keep switching around and you will see some will work well on some layers but not on others. It took years to build up so it will take many cleaning sessions to remove just try to leave it cleaner each time you use it than it was before.
     

    K31

    "Part of that Ultra MAGA Crowd"
    MDS Supporter
    Jan 15, 2006
    35,632
    AA county
    Worse comes to worst you could go the electrolysis route. (Lots of other videos and articles on this out there)

     

    lazarus

    Ultimate Member
    Jun 23, 2015
    13,673
    Thanks on the cleaning ideas. Any thoughts on what was done in relation to the cut down? Searching images I've seen several identical. No idea, but my thought as it was some importer who sporterized them decades ago.

    Thoughts on the forestock? A little wood filler under where the receiver inletting is, let it dry and carefully touch it up with a file until it is a tight fit under the receiver and then replace the broken wire? Call it a day then? Or should I mess with it further and just figure I need to clamp it in a vice and drill and tap the wood with my table vice for a couple of screws to screw the top and bottom forestock together (gently). Or anyone know of adjustable barrel bands? Though to do that right I'd need to mill the wood down, which probably is beyond my capabilities to do well.

    My two backup options are just remove the top piece and live with it "further sporterized", though I think seeing the receiver inletting will annoy me a little. That or a replacement (as much as the gun) K98k stock which should fit fine (I'd think) or just get an aftermarket sporterized stock (same deal with the empty front inletting on the receiver annoying me most likely).

    I guess part of it is also going to depend on how it shoots after two or three sessions at the range and a chance to clean the bejesus out of it more and knock out some of the barrel corrosion and hope it shoots well. If it is horrible shooter I guess that answers the question of the work to do on it, which would probably be none and just look to replace the barrel some year when I have the time and money to really turn this in to a project rifle (assuming that the receiver at least seems good, which it does) and then figure out a stock at that point.

    Again. if this will do 3-4" groups at 100yds I'll be happy. Iron sights, at least blade and notch I am not much better than 2" groups with the best rifle in the universe from the bench at 100yds. Actual deer hunting, HA! I'd probably be lucky to manage 5" groups standing off hand at that distance. Peep sights I can tighten that up a little and scope even better than that of course.

    How much cleaning does it really need after shooting corrosive ammo? Just a patch with a little windex on it down the bore at the range, another when I am home and then regular gun cleaners? Or do I need to also tear down the bolt and clean that all over with windex as well? Or just wipe the bolt face a little with windex or something? I'd prefer not to add to the wear (in a bad way) on this thing if at all possible.
     

    Doco Overboard

    Ultimate Member
    Looks like an early one to me. See if you can tell if it's a military or commercial model.
    No Idea why someone cut the stock, either an attempt to get it in a duffel bag or a mailing container from back in the day.
    Bet it doesn't have import marks. Just a WAG on my behalf.
    I like it but suspect it's been rebarreled around the same time it met that stock. Pure speculation though.
    Have fun,but a this is one where I would definitely check CHS and measure the bore.
     

    lazarus

    Ultimate Member
    Jun 23, 2015
    13,673
    Looks like an early one to me. See if you can tell if it's a military or commercial model.
    No Idea why someone cut the stock, either an attempt to get it in a duffel bag or a mailing container from back in the day.
    Bet it doesn't have import marks. Just a WAG on my behalf.
    I like it but suspect it's been rebarreled around the same time it met that stock. Pure speculation though.
    Have fun,but a this is one where I would definitely check CHS and measure the bore.

    Nope, barrel serial number matches the receiver. No import marks. Just has the Imperial crest, proof marks and the Spandau manufacturing mark on it.

    Check CHS? Check head space?
     

    Doco Overboard

    Ultimate Member
    CHS yep. Check it out real good. Have a look and see if the trigger and sear have not been ground on improperly. Dry-firing will not hurt it one bit but snap caps are always a good idea.
    I just gave away a Venezuelan stock and handguard with all the metal about a week ago.
     

    lazarus

    Ultimate Member
    Jun 23, 2015
    13,673
    CHS yep. Check it out real good. Have a look and see if the trigger and sear have not been ground on improperly. Dry-firing will not hurt it one bit but snap caps are always a good idea.
    I just gave away a Venezuelan stock and handguard with all the metal about a week ago.

    Well now you are making me sad.

    Though the barrel is shortened ~24” or so. I’ll measure at some point, but the length, bolt and later version eight makes me think someone (Wehrmacht or someone else) concerted or attempted to convert it to a K98k.
     

    lazarus

    Ultimate Member
    Jun 23, 2015
    13,673
    Day 2 of scrubbing. I got the bolt apart (ohhhhh! The safety has to be in the middle position), no noticeable corrosion in there, but it looks like someone packed it with bearing grease, nearly. Cleaned it all up and just a light rub of some CLP and reassembled. The bore soaked in CLP for the last two days, ran a dry patch through and got tons of funk out. Then a half dozen patches of JB bore cleaner and about 30 passes on each patch. Then a few dry patches and then a few with a little bit of Clp and then a patch soaked in CLP. I’ll attack the bore again in a few days and I have a 32oz bottle of Hoppes #9 on the way. I’ll see about at least a day of soaking with the #9, brush and some patches before I get it to the range. The bore is looking better. Now I am questioning how much is coorosion damage and how much is just shite built up on the bore that is stubborn as hell.

    I’ll probably give up after two more soakings and cleanings and just figure after each range trip I just need to attack the bore a bunch rather than my usual process on most of my guns of running a patch with some cleaner down the bore every couple of range trips (or every time if i shoot a bunch that trip) followed by a few dry patches and then one with a tiny bit of CLP on it more as preservative than anything.

    Since I’ll probably be shooting corrosive ammo on this first trip, a little ammonia first before scrubbing. Maybe not all Hope needs to be lost on this rifle.
     

    BeoBill

    Crank in the Third Row
    MDS Supporter
    Oct 3, 2013
    27,058
    南馬里蘭州鮑伊
    Looks like an early one to me. See if you can tell if it's a military or commercial model.
    No Idea why someone cut the stock, either an attempt to get it in a duffel bag or a mailing container from back in the day.
    Bet it doesn't have import marks. Just a WAG on my behalf.
    I like it but suspect it's been rebarreled around the same time it met that stock. Pure speculation though.
    Have fun,but a this is one where I would definitely check CHS and measure the bore.

    It may be one of the "Commercially Sporterized" Mausers that flooded the market in to early to mid-1960s. If so, it has a collector following all its own.
     

    Doco Overboard

    Ultimate Member
    The description of tops of the lands looking clean and the bottom of the grooves looking rough could be and indication of a barrel with the tighter groove diameter.
    Maybe the fouling your seeing is an indication of such a rifle. Someone with the right resource material could help you I'd what your working with by identifying marks.
    Or slug the barrel to verify exactly what you have.
    The rear sight collar and sights from my view right now does look like the later variety which is usually out of the scope of bubba's ability to swap out the collar correctly indicating use for the later spitzer bullets.
     

    lazarus

    Ultimate Member
    Jun 23, 2015
    13,673
    A better look down the rifle. So far I still haven’t found any import marks. I found the little imperial crown and N of a German service rifle. A few others that appear to be proof marks. Not marks from a foreign country. I’ll try to get pictures of them in the next couple of days.

    I think the land/groove difference is more that the lands cleaned up a lot faster. I still can’t tell what might be damage to the grooves and what might be really nasty deposit builds on them. Every solvent covered patch comes out a disgusting black.
     

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    lazarus

    Ultimate Member
    Jun 23, 2015
    13,673
    Oh, also any suggestions on what to use to slug the barrel? I assume a lead ball, but what diameter for 8 Mauser? Something in the .32 range?

    Also yesterday I pulled out the firing pin and cocking mechanism and ran the bolt with a few rounds in the magazine. Ran nice and smooth and ejected fine (and by fine I mean even slowly running the bolt I had to go find the rounds when I failed to catch them. By comparison my Sako if you work the bolt slowly dribbles rounds over the side of the receiver). So at a minimum it doesn’t look like head space is too short since it chambers fine and no imprints on the bullet ogive. Which would be surprising on an old gun.

    No gauges to tell if it is too long, but from what I understand that would only possibly
    Be an issue of case head or throat separation, which wouldn’t be good, but isn’t generally dangerous (especially with all of the gas deflecting a Mauser has going on) in a bolt gun.
     

    K-43

    West of Morning Side
    Oct 20, 2010
    1,881
    PG
    Every Military 98 made after 1905 has the .323" groove diameter. There is no debate on that. Spandau did not make "Commercial" M98 rifles, just Military ones. Hence, a 1913 Spandau would have a .323" barrel.
    The sight is 98K of 1930s through 1940s. Probably was a long rifle shortened to "k" short rifle configuration after the 1933 adoption.
    Windex does nothing for corrosive ammo. That's an old wives' tale. Water is the only thing that dissolves and disperses the salts. Ammonia is not even in Windex and ammonia doesn't do anything besides act as a detergent anyway. Plain old dish soap and water are as effective.
    Shooting corrosive ammo in a bolt gun is no big deal. Just mop with water, dry and go at it with regular more cleaner and oil. Ballistol does nothing for corrosive salts unless mixed with water as "Moosemilk". The same with GI bore cleaner of long ago; it contains water is all. Just scrub the bore with hot water or water/soap mix. Dry it, clean with Hoppes or whatever floats your boat, and oil. Wipe off the bolt face and chamber end of the reciever with a damp rag then oil. Go to bed.
     

    lazarus

    Ultimate Member
    Jun 23, 2015
    13,673
    Every Military 98 made after 1905 has the .323" groove diameter. There is no debate on that. Spandau did not make "Commercial" M98 rifles, just Military ones. Hence, a 1913 Spandau would have a .323" barrel.
    The sight is 98K of 1930s through 1940s. Probably was a long rifle shortened to "k" short rifle configuration after the 1933 adoption.
    Windex does nothing for corrosive ammo. That's an old wives' tale. Water is the only thing that dissolves and disperses the salts. Ammonia is not even in Windex and ammonia doesn't do anything besides act as a detergent anyway. Plain old dish soap and water are as effective.
    Shooting corrosive ammo in a bolt gun is no big deal. Just mop with water, dry and go at it with regular more cleaner and oil. Ballistol does nothing for corrosive salts unless mixed with water as "Moosemilk". The same with GI bore cleaner of long ago; it contains water is all. Just scrub the bore with hot water or water/soap mix. Dry it, clean with Hoppes or whatever floats your boat, and oil. Wipe off the bolt face and chamber end of the reciever with a damp rag then oil. Go to bed.

    Awesome info, thanks!

    Should I bother swabbing it out with water at the range, or just figure take care of it an hour or so later when I get home from the range?
     

    lazarus

    Ultimate Member
    Jun 23, 2015
    13,673
    IT DIDNT BLOW UP!!!

    Everything seems great, all measurements were just fine and repair the corrosion in the bore, it looked solid. I threw a sand bag over the action and over the rear of the bolt and leaned way back when I pulled the trigger on the first round (with gloves and a heavy canvas jacket on).

    Ran 15 rounds of 1956 Yugo through it and 20 of some old steel core Turkish.

    Both shot okay, but not great and tightened with rounds down range. The Yugo shot about 3 inches lower than the Turkish and was noticeably lower recoil. The Turkish grouped about 6 inches at 100yds for 10 rounds. 5” high x 3” wide.

    Pretty sure decent new commercial ammo could tighten that up by a couple of inches. It isn’t going to be any tack driver, but I am very happy with it. The bore is also finally starting to get pretty well cleaned on. Looks a little rough, but so much better than it had. I can’t do much better than 3 inch groups with notch sights at 100yds anyway. I also need to drift the front sight slightly. The whole group was even with the center line. How fun.

    It also may need a new extractor. It had problems lipping a couple of rounds and I had to let them slide back out of the chamber, push them down in to the magazine and give it ago again.
     

    K-43

    West of Morning Side
    Oct 20, 2010
    1,881
    PG
    Great! Try Wipeout Foaming Bore Cleaner you spray into the barrel or the Patchout, which is a liquid. You can leave it in overnight without harm and it'll eat at the old layers of carbon and copper without tons of brushing.
    You can do it every day. Just shoot it in the from the chamber, put a rag or paper towel in the breach and a baggie over the muzzle. Next day, patch it out. Repeating this won't harm the bore and if anything will get it down to steel without scrubbing, horrible stink, etching, or wearing away the lands, Wipeout will.

    I don't flush with water at the range, but I do as soon as I get home. MD is humid, but I've never had rust develop in just a few hours.
    I don't shoot corrosive in my gas guns just because I'm too lazy to break down and hose out a Garand, FAL, or AK everytime I shoot it. However, I shoot corrosive surplus in my Mausers and Springfields without any reservations. They're actually less work than a muzzleloader to clean.
     

    lazarus

    Ultimate Member
    Jun 23, 2015
    13,673
    Great! Try Wipeout Foaming Bore Cleaner you spray into the barrel or the Patchout, which is a liquid. You can leave it in overnight without harm and it'll eat at the old layers of carbon and copper without tons of brushing.
    You can do it every day. Just shoot it in the from the chamber, put a rag or paper towel in the breach and a baggie over the muzzle. Next day, patch it out. Repeating this won't harm the bore and if anything will get it down to steel without scrubbing, horrible stink, etching, or wearing away the lands, Wipeout will.

    I don't flush with water at the range, but I do as soon as I get home. MD is humid, but I've never had rust develop in just a few hours.
    I don't shoot corrosive in my gas guns just because I'm too lazy to break down and hose out a Garand, FAL, or AK everytime I shoot it. However, I shoot corrosive surplus in my Mausers and Springfields without any reservations. They're actually less work than a muzzleloader to clean.

    Yeah, I don’t think I’d mind corrosive in my Mauser. I mean, it could fall apart now, but knowing all I need to do is run some soaking wet patches down the bore, a dry patch and then cleaners. Maybe some water on a rag to wipe down the bolt face and extractor and then dry and oil.

    I’ll try the foam out. Thanks.
     

    Doco Overboard

    Ultimate Member
    Check extractor fit to cartridge rim by making sure the claw is deflected outwards about .004 when a dummy cartridge is inserted up to the bolt face. Inside the edge of the front face of the extractor make sure there is no burrs and on the front face there should be a beveled cam that should have a 45 degree factory surface. Also look at the guide foot and the slot it rotates in for burrs or crud. Sometimes the front of the extractor can interfere with the rear of the ring and affect its ability to support the rim or may be contacting the inner ring very slightly right before the bolt is closed. Smudge it up with some candleblack and you'll be able to see if its contacting the receiver.
    On a good 98 bolt or all of them for that matter with the exception of commercial varieties or intermediate length Yugos there should also be a bevel inside the guide foot slot that tightens the extractor to the rim when the bolt is being lifted.
     

    lazarus

    Ultimate Member
    Jun 23, 2015
    13,673
    Thanks! I’ll check more closely with dummy cartridges as well as the movements of it. That 45 degree cut on it I know looks rough as does the very edge. Not horrible bad, but that is where I’d been thinking some light stonight might clean it up.
     

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