OAL Question

swinokur · Sep 27, 2018

MD Statute 4-104
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Fonzy · Sep 30, 2018

I've read more things in this grey area. It seems if I intended to shoot from my shoulder, then I would need to pay the $200 and call it an SBR? And I'm not to use the pistol brace from my shoulder if I wish to keep it a pistol?

Bob A · Sep 30, 2018

Fonzy said:
I've read more things in this grey area. It seems if I intended to shoot from my shoulder, then I would need to pay the $200 and call it an SBR? And I'm not to use the pistol brace from my shoulder if I wish to keep it a pistol?

I think that an SBR, to be MD legal, has to have an overall length >29 inches.

Beyond that, an SBR must have a form filed with BATFE if you wish to take it out of Maryland. The form must include the destination, and must be filed annually. Not necessary for a "firearm". Also there are states where you may not possess an SBR. (I don't know if you can transport an SBR throuh such places in accordance with Federal law, but I wouldn't take the chance, myself.

The above may not be correct. IANAL, and I'm just starting to get into NFA firearms.

babalou · Sep 30, 2018

my head is spinning

So you have two same firearms. same length, everything exactly the same. Except!!!!!! one has a brace and the other a stock. so the stock one is an SBR and the other a pistol? Not that familiar with these two types. I am wanting to get into AR pistols due to fondling a few of Outrider's.

Fonzy · Sep 30, 2018

babalou said:
my head is spinning So you have two same firearms. same length, everything exactly the same. Except!!!!!! one has a brace and the other a stock. so the stock one is an SBR and the other a pistol? Not that familiar with these two types. I am wanting to get into AR pistols due to fondling a few of Outrider's.

That’s what I’m trying to figure out, haha. From what I’ve seen/read, that seems to be the case. I’m new to all of this, so I’m just as confused! Not sure if it’s different in other states, and that’s what I saw? This stuff is way more complicated than it needs to be!

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Rab1515 · Sep 30, 2018

The key to understanding this is is keeping definitions straight. ATF-handguns and MD-handguns mean different things. Oh except in MD a SBR is simultaneously a handgun (barrel less then 16) and rifle at the same time, which is why they must be 29 or over in length.

Biggfoot44 · Oct 1, 2018

Federal :

Rifle ( 16 < bbl , 26 < OAL , intented to be fired from shoulder )
Handgun ( 26 > OAL , intended to be fired one hand )
Other firearm, not NFA - ( Lots of things , but relevant to this discussion - 16 > bbl , 26 < OAL , not intended to fire from shoulder , intended for two hands aka vert foreward grip, OK ) .

Maryland ( Centerfire Semiauto where applicable)

Rifle - 16 < bbl, AND 29in OAL
Handgun ( For transport purposes ) - Everything 16> bbl .
SBR - Bbl may be 16 > , but OAL must be 29 <

[ Note - For Rimfires and non- semiauto actins ( single shot, bolt, pump, lever, etc, and full auto , the Federal 26in standard applys, not the Maryland 29in . Further note certain " other firerarm , not NFA " must be created in certain manner and sequences , and other " things that go bang " that have identical end result might be considered NFA .]

Confused yet ? Good ! If you not confused , you are probably overlooking several important details .

babalou · Oct 1, 2018

Thanks

Biggfoot44 said:
Federal :

Rifle ( 16 < bbl , 26 < OAL , intented to be fired from shoulder )
Handgun ( 26 > OAL , intended to be fired one hand )
Other firearm, not NFA - ( Lots of things , but relevant to this discussion - 16 > bbl , 26 < OAL , not intended to fire from shoulder , intended for two hands aka vert foreward grip, OK ) .

Maryland ( Centerfire Semiauto where applicable)

Rifle - 16 < bbl, AND 29in OAL
Handgun ( For transport purposes ) - Everything 16> bbl .
SBR - Bbl may be 16 > , but OAL must be 29 <

[ Note - For Rimfires and non- semiauto actins ( single shot, bolt, pump, lever, etc, and full auto , the Federal 26in standard applys, not the Maryland 29in . Further note certain " other firerarm , not NFA " must be created in certain manner and sequences , and other " things that go bang " that have identical end result might be considered NFA .]

Confused yet ? Good ! If you not confused , you are probably overlooking several important details .

Thanks BigFoot44. ugh you are right

. You have your < and > reversed?

So I can have two 9 inch barreled 300 blackouts- due to 9 inch about the best length for full burn and--- wait. Two 5 inch barreled 300 blackouts. One has a brace so pistol. If I put on a long ass stock on the other, it technically would be an SBR. Sort of like those old Mauser pistol carbines?

RedTide · Oct 1, 2018

babalou said:
So I can have two...5 inch barreled 300 blackouts. One has a brace so pistol. If I put on a long ass stock on the other, it technically would be an SBR. Sort of like those old Mauser pistol carbines?

Assuming you're speaking of AR uppers: It'd have to be a really long stock, as generally somewhere around 10" barrel is necessary for maintaining 29" OAL req'd in MD. There are some threads about folks trying to squeeze 29" out of an 8.5" barrel length (iirc) and needing to go above and beyond to do it. (Short version of that being it can be done with enough research and effort.) 5" is probably pushing that in practical terms. Keep in mind, that 29" OAL is at full stock extension.

Things change quickly with bullpups, etc.

Past that, yes...one is a pistol, and one an SBR. I have a 300blk and 5.56 upper that are changed between pistol and SBR lowers. Both have 10.5" barrels and both were built into a pistol configuration first.

.02 from an NFA newbie

Biggfoot44 · Oct 1, 2018

You can certainly have 9in or 5in Blackouts .... as pistols . You could make the above into an SBR with a stock . . . in most of the rest of US . In Maryland that would be illegal for not being 29in OAL .

That's presuming you are speaking of typical AR semiauto platform . If you used a single shot AR lower ( no mag well at all) , you could make an SBR of whatever bbl length you wish. With Form 1, Tax Stamp, etc of course . Likewise do so with any other single shot , or manually operated action . For that matter , you could use a transferable full auto lower, if you have the $$$$ .

Hawkeye · Oct 1, 2018

Fonzy said:
I've read more things in this grey area. It seems if I intended to shoot from my shoulder, then I would need to pay the $200 and call it an SBR? And I'm not to use the pistol brace from my shoulder if I wish to keep it a pistol?

That's because ATF has waffled back and forth about the entire pistol brace thing a bunch of times. First they were fine to use. Then if you touched them to your shoulder you had "made" in that moment, an illegal SBR. Then they changed their mind again to the current "thought crime" interpretation, which is that if you "intended" to use it like a rifle when you built it, then it is an illegal SBR. However, if you "intended" to use it like a pistol when you built it, then it is fine, even if you "occasionally" touch it to your shoulder. Stupid, but the end result is that if you intend to make a pistol when you make it, then you are fine, no matter how you use it.

Bob A said:
I think that an SBR, to be MD legal, has to have an overall length >29 inches.

Only if that SBR is first possessed (either purchased or made on a Form 1) after 10/1/13. If you owned the SBR prior to that it's grandfathered and OAL doesn't matter. If you make a new SBR post 10/1/13, it has to meet all of the tests - OAL and features.

(I don't know if you can transport an SBR throuh such places in accordance with Federal law, but I wouldn't take the chance, myself.

It is 100% legal to transport any firearm through a state where it is banned if your origin and destination are in other states where it is not banned. FOPA covers this.

babalou said:
my head is spinning So you have two same firearms. same length, everything exactly the same. Except!!!!!! one has a brace and the other a stock. so the stock one is an SBR and the other a pistol?

Essentially, yes.

Bigfoot44 covered this pretty well up above. The essential parts of the federal definition of a "rifle" is that it has a rifled barrel and is "intended to be fired from the shoulder," which ATF has decided means "has a shoulder stock." Federal definition of a handgun is that it is intended to be fired with one hand. Thus in your scenario, the one with a stock is a rifle (specifically a Short Barreled Rifle in your case if the barrel is less than 16"), and the one with a brace is still a handgun.

swinokur · Oct 1, 2018

An additional pisser is even if you owned a <29” OAL SBR in another state prior to 10-1-13 BATFE still wont approve a 5320.20 to transport it into MD.

Total BS

Biggfoot44 · Oct 1, 2018

Opps, didn't touch the Grandfathered can of worms, but the OP was contemplating a current build .

outrider58 · Oct 1, 2018

swinokur said:
So if has a barrel over 16” but is intended to be fired with one hand what does MD say it is? If it's concealable MD says it''s a handgun.

MD statute does say a “Firearm” that is “concealable” is considered a handgun. So it does reference the term "firearm"

Comparing Md gun law(jargon) with federal gun law(jargon) is like comparing 9mm with .40 S&W. It's the perfect apples and orange discussion. They don't compare.

Fonzy · Oct 1, 2018

Found this video that makes some sense. I was worried about the brace, and where it's used. This video seems to clarify. Not sure if anything has been updated since its release, though.

https://youtu.be/iYMJ9yXVdjk

swinokur · Oct 2, 2018

outrider58 said:
Comparing Md gun law(jargon) with federal gun law(jargon) is like comparing 9mm with .40 S&W. It's the perfect apples and orange discussion. They don't compare.

A post by another member said that MD law does not define the term firearm.

That is incorrect. I never said they were the same.

That was the point of my posts.

outrider58 · Oct 2, 2018

swinokur said:
A post by another member said that MD law does not define the term firearm.

That is incorrect. I never said they were the same.

That was the point of my posts.

I was agreeing. Just putting it a different way. Maybe poorly at that.

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