Hunting w/ Wildcat Cartridge

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  • terp91

    Active Member
    Mar 14, 2013
    204
    Halethorpe
    I tried searching but didn't find anything. If it's already been answered please re-direct me to the existing thread.

    I've only ever hunted with SAAMI approved cartridges, but am interested in the legality of hunting with a wildcat in Maryland. The DNR site only has minimum energy requirements listed for each rifles and pistol (1200 ft-lbs / 700 ft-lbs), and says to consult ammunition guides for this information. If a given cartridge meets the energy requirement based on muzzle velocity and bullet weight, but doesn't have any data available in published reloading manuals, is it still legal to use for deer?
     

    delaware_export

    Ultimate Member
    Apr 10, 2018
    3,096
    Not sure about Maryland, but check it there are any restrictions on bullet type. Some states prohibit FMJ or similar rounds. Requiring expanding bullets.

    Or cals that are too small, like smaller than 22 for big Game, or too big, some don’t allow casings > X inches. Effectively prohibiting 50bmg and other similar large casings.

    Again, NOT sure if this applies in MD, but worth checking into just in case.
     

    dist1646

    Ultimate Member
    May 1, 2012
    8,732
    Eldersburg
    Wildcat cartridges are perfectly fine as long as they meet the bullet type ( ie, not FMJ, armor piercing, etc. ) and energy requirements.
     

    Mike3888

    Mike3888
    Feb 21, 2013
    1,125
    Dundalk, Md-Mifflin,Pa
    I tried searching but didn't find anything. If it's already been answered please re-direct me to the existing thread.

    I've only ever hunted with SAAMI approved cartridges, but am interested in the legality of hunting with a wildcat in Maryland. The DNR site only has minimum energy requirements listed for each rifles and pistol (1200 ft-lbs / 700 ft-lbs), and says to consult ammunition guides for this information. If a given cartridge meets the energy requirement based on muzzle velocity and bullet weight, but doesn't have any data available in published reloading manuals, is it still legal to use for deer?

    So what’s the cartridge your thinking about..
     

    terp91

    Active Member
    Mar 14, 2013
    204
    Halethorpe
    Not sure about Maryland, but check it there are any restrictions on bullet type. Some states prohibit FMJ or similar rounds. Requiring expanding bullets.

    Or cals that are too small, like smaller than 22 for big Game, or too big, some don’t allow casings > X inches. Effectively prohibiting 50bmg and other similar large casings.

    Again, NOT sure if this applies in MD, but worth checking into just in case.

    I'd use a proper controlled expansion bullet. Also, MD does limit the bullet type, but I've never seen a caliber or case length limit for MD.


    Wildcat cartridges are perfectly fine as long as they meet the bullet type ( ie, not FMJ, armor piercing, etc. ) and energy requirements.

    Sounds good, thank you for verifying. For something like this, how would an officer verify the round is compliant other than the bullet type itself? Do you think a reference card with the bullet type, weight, and muzzle velocity would be sufficient to show him/her it is valid?


    So what’s the cartridge your thinking about..

    Not 100% sure what I'll do yet, but been thinking about a 357 Max rimless. Should be able to get a 180gr to ~2100fps, so 1750 ft-lbs at the muzzle. Initially was looking into the 350 Legend but it doesn't use normal 223 brass and it uses 0.355 bullets so doesn't fit my needs.

    Overall looking for a round that is MD and Ohio legal for deer, preferably useable in an AR with just an upper swap. To fit both states it needs to be:
    Ohio: straight-walled cartridge; 0.357-0.50 caliber; max 3 rounds
    MD: 1200 ft-lbs minimum; lead, lead-alloy, or copper bullet; soft-nosed or expanding bullet
     

    danb

    dont be a dumbass
    Feb 24, 2013
    22,704
    google is your friend, I am not.
    The regs are here: http://www.eregulations.com/maryland/hunting/deer-regulations-archery-muzzleloader-firearms-airguns/

    For rifles, "Rifles used for deer hunting must use ammunition developing a muzzle energy of at least 1,200 foot pounds" there appear to be no bullet type restrictions (but obviously a controlled expansion bullet is wise). There is such a rule listed for muzzleloaders " at least .40 caliber in size and must use 60 grains of black powder or more (a black powder equivalent is acceptable) and propel one all lead, lead alloy or copper soft-nosed or expanding bullet or ball at a single discharge."

    It is conceivable that there are county-specific hunt rules, but not likely on the bullet type. For example some counties only allow certain firearms during Firearms Season.

    Keep in mind though in MD almost all Firearms hunting in Central Md is shotgun. You have to get outside the Blue Zone to find rifle hunting. So you could end up with a rifle that you dont use much in MD.
     

    terp91

    Active Member
    Mar 14, 2013
    204
    Halethorpe
    Wouldn't 450 Bushmaster or one of the current options work for you without going wildcat? Does anyone make an upper for said wildcat?

    I just started looking into this earlier last week so could definitely have missed a standard chambering that would work for my intended use. I'll double check, but thought 450BM needed a different bolt and magazines (or at least followers). If it will work with standard AR components it'd definitely be an option and easier to get started.

    For the 357 - Green Mountain has suitable barrel blanks, and reamers are available so that wouldn't be an problem. With a properly chambered barrel it should assemble the same as any other upper. Starline makes 223 basic brass that can be used so no issues there.
     

    terp91

    Active Member
    Mar 14, 2013
    204
    Halethorpe
    The regs are here: http://www.eregulations.com/maryland/hunting/deer-regulations-archery-muzzleloader-firearms-airguns/

    For rifles, "Rifles used for deer hunting must use ammunition developing a muzzle energy of at least 1,200 foot pounds" there appear to be no bullet type restrictions (but obviously a controlled expansion bullet is wise). There is such a rule listed for muzzleloaders " at least .40 caliber in size and must use 60 grains of black powder or more (a black powder equivalent is acceptable) and propel one all lead, lead alloy or copper soft-nosed or expanding bullet or ball at a single discharge."

    It is conceivable that there are county-specific hunt rules, but not likely on the bullet type. For example some counties only allow certain firearms during Firearms Season.

    Keep in mind though in MD almost all Firearms hunting in Central Md is shotgun. You have to get outside the Blue Zone to find rifle hunting. So you could end up with a rifle that you dont use much in MD.

    Not worried about a place to hunt, I already have a lease in an area that allows rifle. Used a .30-30 for a couple years then got an AR with 300BLK upper. Neither would be legal for use in Ohio, so starting to look for something different I could use in both states. An AR compatible round would mean I can just have a second upper or switch out the barrel on the 300 and keep the rest of the rifle the same.
     

    Park ranger

    Ultimate Member
    Dec 6, 2015
    2,314
    Your not going to have a problem. Unless your trying to convince an officer your 40 S&W pistol caliber carbine is making 1200 foot pounds.

    I think the 450 bushmaster is going to be around longer than the 350 legend.

    Don't try swapping barrels, just get the upper and headspace bolt. Save yourself a lot of headaches. Or go classy and use a 45 Colt lever gun. :-)
     

    terp91

    Active Member
    Mar 14, 2013
    204
    Halethorpe
    Check out the new 350 Legend from Winchester.

    Unfortunately from everything I've read Winchester screwed up on this one and used a 0.355 bore instead of 0.357 so it's not really legal for some midwest states (including Ohio). Yes, it's only a 0.002" difference, but I'd rather not risk a ticket for something dumb like that.
     

    terp91

    Active Member
    Mar 14, 2013
    204
    Halethorpe
    Your not going to have a problem. Unless your trying to convince an officer your 40 S&W pistol caliber carbine is making 1200 foot pounds.

    I think the 450 bushmaster is going to be around longer than the 350 legend.

    Don't try swapping barrels, just get the upper and headspace bolt. Save yourself a lot of headaches. Or go classy and use a 45 Colt lever gun. :-)

    Good to know. I've never been asked what round I'm hunting with, but wasn't sure how explaining it would go if needed. Simply showing it's a 'big' bullet not a 223 would probably be enough, just want to be on the safe side.

    Unless Winchester can convince some midwest states to alter their regulations to allow 0.355 instead of 0.357 I don't think it will be here for more than a couple years. I do like the numbers on the 450BM, and it sounds very effective from all I've read. May still end up going that route, not sure yet.

    A lever gun in 444 or 45-70 would be nice, but a good condition pre-safety JM rifle and ammo for it would both be a bit expensive. Can 45 Colt make 1200 ft-lbs? Never looked into it because I didn't think it'd meet the energy requirement.
     

    terp91

    Active Member
    Mar 14, 2013
    204
    Halethorpe
    Didn’t realize that. Thanks for the information.

    Sure thing, I appreciate the suggestion. If Ohio decides to change their rules to accept it next year I probably will go that route. Just planning now so wouldn't end up building / buying until over the winter anyway.

    It'll be interesting to see what kind of results people get from the 350L this year. Most bullets in that size are meant for lower velocity vs the slightly larger diameter ones for 358 Win and 35 Whelen. Hopefully the new rounds Winchester came out with hold together well at the higher velocity and perform nicely.
     

    Biggfoot44

    Ultimate Member
    Aug 2, 2009
    32,775
    Humm . One of the primary factors for the introduction of the .350 was to be legal for " Straight Wall " states .
     

    jcutonilli

    Ultimate Member
    Mar 28, 2013
    2,473
    The Winchester website says that the bullet diameter for the .350 legend is .357 so it should be legal in Ohio.
     

    GunBum

    Active Member
    Feb 21, 2018
    751
    SW Missouri
    The “wildcat” you are describing is the .350 Legend. Winchester ripped it off from a guy (Moleman) who has been making them in Michigan for well over a decade. All documented with posts on various gun smithing and gun building forums. FWIW, Moleman has made the cartridge in at least 3 different lengths for different platforms, but the original was optimized to shoot out of an AR.

    He, and another guy in Wisconsin also have a similar set of rimless, straight walled .44’s. They call the two lengths the .44 BG and the .44 BGM. Or the .44 Big Gun

    His newest is a .375 that he is calling the “.375 FUW”..... shouldn’t take a genius to figure out what FUW stands for.
     

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