I understand the discussion, I just think we can't have it both ways. I know we'd like to know how many of the " connected " people got permits without having G&S reasons. I just don't think it's the best way to go. We were successful in district court, but the 4th overturned Wollard. Wollard had two areas that needed to be addressed, but only one was addressed. We now need to get a 14th Amendment case pushed through based on the question is one man's life worth more than another just for the simple fact he has a business. In the end Maryland says guard the cash, not the life. Well I have cash too, but not from a business.
Do we have a Due Process case on CCWs?
- Thread starter Mike OTDP
- Start date
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I understand the discussion, I just think we can't have it both ways. I know we'd like to know how many of the " connected " people got permits without having G&S reasons. I just don't think it's the best way to go. We were successful in district court, but the 4th overturned Wollard. Wollard had two areas that needed to be addressed, but only one was addressed. We now need to get a 14th Amendment case pushed through based on the question is one man's life worth more than another just for the simple fact he has a business. In the end Maryland says guard the cash, not the life. Well I have cash too, but not from a business.
Discovery requires two things, a lawsuit and lot's of money to pay just for discovery. Discovery and depositions are the largest money suck of any lawsuit.
Records are protected from PIA requests per state law.
Yep there is and they keep general track of the number of applications, how many are initial and how many are renewals, as well as the number of denials. Show me anywhere in state statute or regulation they are required to do any more than that (playing devil's advocate)
Those break outs would be great, but MSP doesn't keep track of the "why" or "why not", (they kind of do), they keep track of the number of permits issued by occupation. By that list we can guess at what the reason why was.
For the 375 denials, unless they all appeal, we have no clue, but based on the HPRB meetings since February, a good portion of the denials are prohibited persons.
And that's not a bad thing, I'm trying to get you to develop the different perspective and refine it.
I know what I don't know and there is always more to learn and more to do, but it needs to be done for a reason, and not just to do it, and needs to be done smartly.
MSP has stated they do not track by need, and that the do not deny based on occupation, yet they track by occupation and deny based on need. Interesting answer isn't it?
I haven't sat on my ass since 2013, I do tend to throw stones, but not in the way you take it, but to get people to think and refine ideas and how they might fit into or help the big picture.
Everyone has to have a G&S and fill out the paperwork and have the training and the fingerprints. Due process may very well be the next step, the issue is building a case backwards and then having that person apply, knowing they will be denied by MSP, denied by the HPRB, lose a judicial review at the Circuit Court, and then either win at the Federal Circuit Court for Maryland or lose and then win at the 4th Circuit.
Not only do we need the perfect person(s) (with a lot of patience), but an outstanding legal team that can build the case backwards, argue it forwards, and the metric shit ton of money to do it.
Well, that was a rational, reasoned, constructive if not critical (thought wise) reply.
Thank you.
I'm back to two sets of rules...in this case, three. The uber rich/connected, the folks who work for a living and the denizens of downtown.
A change of scenery changed my calculus. For that I'm glad.
Mike OTDP
Ultimate Member
- Feb 12, 2008
- 3,324
This is why I like the idea of putting together 150 or so applicants and tracking them through each stage of the process. If nothing else, it'll put an end to the "95% approved" lie.
I try not to be dick about things unless it is really called for.
As for legal carry, there is really only one set really, business owners and those that need it for their job.
The denizens of downtown have never played by the rules, but that doesn't mean we should descend to their level.
Keep working on the math above, I like where this is going, all ideas are welcome, and as stated before, I know what I don't know, but can impart what I do, and others can then run with that.
I try not to be dick about things unless it is really called for.
As for legal carry, there is really only one set really, business owners and those that need it for their job.
The denizens of downtown have never played by the rules, but that doesn't mean we should descend to their level.
Keep working on the math above, I like where this is going, all ideas are welcome, and as stated before, I know what I don't know, but can impart what I do, and others can then run with that.
Is there any publicly available list of MSP IG or State IG reports that the public can peruse in public? Sometimes there really is a pony under all that BS. One never knows unless one looks.
IG reports in what regards?
fabsroman
Ultimate Member
And this would be correct. Not too expensive if you can represent yourself. However, losing at the appellate court level (e.g., Court of Special Appeals, Court of Appeals, Federal District Court) would pretty much seal the fate of the rest of us as it would become precedent.
This is almost like a Heller or Woolard. In both of those cases, plaintiffs were selected that had been denied an alleged right. Same goes for Kolbe.
One thing that might prevent a class action on this matter is that the granting of a CCW permit is very fact specific. Now, if everybody had put "self defense" on their application as a reason for the application and the required G&S, then a class action might be possible if everybody was denied based upon this exact same reason. Ultimately, a class action really is not needed in this matter. A class action is for when the amount of the claim is extremely small for a lot of plaintiffs with the exact same issue, and hiring an attorney to litigate every $10 claim would be ridiculous.
In a case like this, we the people either need to contribute to the legal fund to help with something like this, or we need an organization like MSI, SAF, or NRA to step up, with the latter two being the ones with the really deep pockets.
Wonder what the funding would be like if we, as a community, were asked to help fund a lawsuit that backs "self defense" as a valid reason under G&S for a CCW permit?
fabsroman
Ultimate Member
I have yet to read Woolard. If "self defense" was argued in Woolard and addressed by the 4th Circuit, then it would be precedent for the Federal District Court. If that is the case, then this is a moot point and we already know what the law is in the 4th Circuit. Then again, I doubt Gryphon would have overlooked this in his legal argument to the HPRB.
Guess I am going to have to sit down and read Woolard sometime before tax season gets here.
I am not familiar with the permitting scheme in MD.
Generally though you need a protected property or liberty interest to start.
You have that in Woolard. There the Court applied intermediate scrutiny to uphold the law so they did find that the Second Amendment applies outside the home.
What's tricky is the last two parts.
You need to determine what procedures are currently in place to determine whether a permit is issued. How those procedures are lacking to the extent that they impact your rights and balance that with the burden to the government to put in more procedures.
If there is a lot of cronyism, I think the best approach would be to argue equal protection and try to establish at trial that you are being treated unequally to the well connected. That would be a long and very fact specific case though.
Generally though you need a protected property or liberty interest to start.
You have that in Woolard. There the Court applied intermediate scrutiny to uphold the law so they did find that the Second Amendment applies outside the home.
What's tricky is the last two parts.
You need to determine what procedures are currently in place to determine whether a permit is issued. How those procedures are lacking to the extent that they impact your rights and balance that with the burden to the government to put in more procedures.
If there is a lot of cronyism, I think the best approach would be to argue equal protection and try to establish at trial that you are being treated unequally to the well connected. That would be a long and very fact specific case though.
Really not sure until I see the way the reports are categorized. I'm assuming like the Federal reports, but probably more obtuse.
Hmmmm, lunch or coffee one day to discuss?
Sounds good to me - pm me?
MEANWHILE, for the edification of all, I got off my dead butt and found an answer to my own question:
{MSP} Document Downloads
http://mdsp.maryland.gov/Pages/Downloads.aspx
And in there:
2013 Facts and Statistics Addendum
A detailed 2013 annual report for the Maryland State Police.
http://mdsp.maryland.gov/Document Downloads/2013 Facts and Statistics.pdf
And box scores in there for the LD. Quite an interesting increase in denials on Page 70...
Emphasis added to both above.
Note the "FSA 2013 Effect". Potential bias to default denial as a result of FSA 2013?
The 2014 Annual Report F&S Addendum should be quite interesting once it comes out.
...AND a couple of other goodies for perusal:
Old News:
SOP 29-15-007
Processing of Handgun Permit Applications
http://mdsp.maryland.gov/Document D...essing of Handgun Permit Applications (1).pdf
Wear and Carry Permit Applications Helpful Hints
Bulletin referencing how to complete a Wear and Carry Permit application properly.
http://mdsp.maryland.gov/Document Downloads/LD-HPUBulletin-15-001-WearandCarryPermits_1.pdf
Old News:
SOP 29-15-007
Processing of Handgun Permit Applications
http://mdsp.maryland.gov/Document D...essing of Handgun Permit Applications (1).pdf
Wear and Carry Permit Applications Helpful Hints
Bulletin referencing how to complete a Wear and Carry Permit application properly.
http://mdsp.maryland.gov/Document Downloads/LD-HPUBulletin-15-001-WearandCarryPermits_1.pdf
So, Jack M should be able to give us more insite into the 2013 numbers since he was the Commander back then. Then we can have him help us look at teh 2014 numbers.
Don't forget that MSP has a report due to the Governor and the General Assembly by Dec 31, 2015 that does the following:
(a) The Department of State Police shall investigate illegal transfers,
possession, and transport of firearms within the State, including the number and types of firearms seized by the Department of State Police and the best information available as to the source of the seized firearms.
(b) On or before December 31, 2015, the Department of State Police shall
report its findings to the Governor and, in accordance with § 2–1246 of the State Government Article, the General Assembly.
Blacksmith101
Grumpy Old Man
- Jun 22, 2012
- 22,293
Based on the list of reports I would assume that there is a 2014 report that probably has not been posted to the web site. Perhaps an inquiry to friendly Maryland State Legislator could shake loose a copy before it is posted.
Last edited:
This from one of our staunch supporters:
"The last page of the Firearms Safety Act of 2013 states;
"On or before December 31, 2015, the Department of State Police shall report its findings to the Governor and, in accordance with § 2–124 of the State Government Article, the General Assembly."
I encourage you to ask your state representatives to make this report available to the public as soon as possible."
psucobra96
Ultimate Member
- Jun 20, 2011
- 4,707
If a legal team is needed I'm wiling to donate my time to help, it sure isn't my area of expertise, but like anything with a good leader I think it is worth the fight rather than say we just can't because....
I believe in our rights and believe we should fight for them anyway we can. Time for me to join MSI as well.
I believe in our rights and believe we should fight for them anyway we can. Time for me to join MSI as well.
