AR 15 lube usage

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  • smokey

    2A TEACHER
    Jan 31, 2008
    31,412
    Generous amount of lubricant mixing with particles of carbon will give you good sanding material right? That will help wearing the metal down further.
    Think of it this way... do you fill your car with oil, run it to coat the parts with oil, and then drain it to keep the carbon from causing excessive wear when mixed with the oil? No. The oil in a car circulates to migrate fouling away from metal, while providing a lubricant boundary layer to reduce wear.

    On a gun, it's pretty much the same. Oil acts to migrate fouling away and keep it from adhering to surfaces as much, while providing a boundary layer to provide wear resistance. It also acts to inhibit corrosion. If you want proof, just shoot more. As an AR begins to get dirty, it'll tend to slow down a bit and then may begin to have malfunctions at an increasing rate. When that happens, dump some oil in through the vent hole in the bolt carrier and see what happens.....tahhhdahhh, the gun will magically begin to cycle smoother and faster again, even without cleaning it.

    I mean, there's also these guys...
     

    Michigander08

    ridiculous and psychotic
    MDS Supporter
    May 29, 2017
    7,685
    Here is a comment by GunBlue on his video:

    All I can say is that I've never had a hangup with a normally lubricated AR-15, and certainly never had an issue with a dry one. I don't know where these guys get the wet thing. According to them, none of our M-16s worked in combat, because nobody I ever knew did such things. In fact, the cleaning protocol in Vietnam was a perfunctory bath and scrubbing in a half 55 gallon drum of JP4 aircraft fuel that was behind the Company area. In less than an hour, what was left after wiping the excess down evaporated due to its volatility, leaving nothing behind. Then we put them back together, as is. Some guys wiped the guns down with LSA, but most, like me, left them as-is, because it was always dusty, and any trace of oil just made mud pies. That's the way we cleaned everything; M-60 machine guns, 1911 pistols, M-79 grenade launchers, and for those of us who didn't care about the stench contaminating their Camels, even filled our Zippo lighters with it. In fact, there was a very bad issue with guys using the small spray cans of WD40 that was included with our occasional Red Cross "care packages", which contaminated primers. A bulletin circulated, and from that point, nobody wanted to use ANY lube on their guns, whether it was approved or not. Everyone's M-16s worked just fine. You can print anything, and get it published. Publishing something simply means it sounded good to the Editor. It doesn't make it true.
     

    Michigander08

    ridiculous and psychotic
    MDS Supporter
    May 29, 2017
    7,685
    Another comment of his:

    We ran our M-16s as dry at the range as they were during white glove inspection, and never saw any oil during the Vietnam days, either at training or in combat. It was well known even then that oil caused glazing of the gas tube and reduced gas flow to the bolt carrier, and that any oil in the barrel or chamber was an invitation to problems. Our drill sergeants who served with M-16s in Vietnam had a dread of oil. The armorer wiped the weapons down with an oiled cloth when we cleaned and turned them in daily, but the rest of us never saw a drop of oil, and the only malfunctions we experienced was an occasional blooper that the range officer safety cleared with his range rod (weak sounding rounds that were actually clear of barrels anyway). I don't know what those NCO's forgot in all those years, or who's convincing them that bad practice of years ago suddenly became good. Many of us had pre-military experience with Remington 742 auto-loading rifles that came packed with specific instructions to keep the chambers free of oil, and they came with a M-16 style chamber brush.
     

    Michigander08

    ridiculous and psychotic
    MDS Supporter
    May 29, 2017
    7,685
    Here is his answer to comparing gun metal to car engine metal:

    Simply, the dynamic forces of an internal combustion cannot be associated with the simplicity of the working parts of a gun. As to cleanliness, guns actually stay cleaner when they are dry. Gun chambers work under pressure, but their actions do not. They slip, glide, rotate, and there is little friction in even the most active parts, and these parts are so hardened in good guns that they cannot be abraded with anything but a cutting stone or a very high grade file. Our M16s functioned tirelessly in training exercises and never wore a single operating part out, and were never provided more than a light wipe of light oil. One CANNOT use oil in a gun chamber, and is a very dangerous foreign matter. Anything more than the oil wiped with a single patch for rust prevention can destroy a gun with excess bolt face thrust or bore obstruction. Heat in a gun is entirely unlike engine heat. Guns do not cycle continuously, nor do the working parts create heat. The only potentially destructive heat is barrel heat, which is a non working part. Even when a barrel becomes so hot in military machine guns that the barrel is changed with barrel gloves, the receiver remains almost cool to the touch. Lastly, I repeat what I have said before in other videos... motor oils contain additives that are designed to increase mileage, assist cold or hot starting, and resist breakdown for hundreds of hours of operation, with the aid of engine coolants. These additives are toxic, and cause cancer. Nice stuff to place one's cheek against. I have had skin cancer. Not cool to have skin shaved off. Plain USP drug store mineral oil wiped on any gun in the toughest of service will keep a gun running like a clock. Watch my more recent video on this issue, and I recommend you see how I maintained service revolvers according to Smith & Wesson standards, as taught to me at the factory. The people who build guns have the greatest experience and know what's best for them.
     

    Michigander08

    ridiculous and psychotic
    MDS Supporter
    May 29, 2017
    7,685
    And I will shut up now since MegArms asked me:

    "You are giving the rest of us Michiganders a bad name. Please stop"



    Thank you all Vietnam Vets for their service!
     

    omegared24

    Ultimate Member
    Dec 23, 2011
    4,747
    Ijamsville, MD
    Here is his answer to comparing gun metal to car engine metal:

    Simply, the dynamic forces of an internal combustion cannot be associated with the simplicity of the working parts of a gun. As to cleanliness, guns actually stay cleaner when they are dry. Gun chambers work under pressure, but their actions do not. They slip, glide, rotate, and there is little friction in even the most active parts, and these parts are so hardened in good guns that they cannot be abraded with anything but a cutting stone or a very high grade file. Our M16s functioned tirelessly in training exercises and never wore a single operating part out, and were never provided more than a light wipe of light oil. One CANNOT use oil in a gun chamber, and is a very dangerous foreign matter. Anything more than the oil wiped with a single patch for rust prevention can destroy a gun with excess bolt face thrust or bore obstruction. Heat in a gun is entirely unlike engine heat. Guns do not cycle continuously, nor do the working parts create heat. The only potentially destructive heat is barrel heat, which is a non working part. Even when a barrel becomes so hot in military machine guns that the barrel is changed with barrel gloves, the receiver remains almost cool to the touch. Lastly, I repeat what I have said before in other videos... motor oils contain additives that are designed to increase mileage, assist cold or hot starting, and resist breakdown for hundreds of hours of operation, with the aid of engine coolants. These additives are toxic, and cause cancer. Nice stuff to place one's cheek against. I have had skin cancer. Not cool to have skin shaved off. Plain USP drug store mineral oil wiped on any gun in the toughest of service will keep a gun running like a clock. Watch my more recent video on this issue, and I recommend you see how I maintained service revolvers according to Smith & Wesson standards, as taught to me at the factory. The people who build guns have the greatest experience and know what's best for them.

    Here comes the firestorm. I would run for cover soldier.
     

    Michigander08

    ridiculous and psychotic
    MDS Supporter
    May 29, 2017
    7,685
    An old Marine agreed:

    I'm an old Marine and I really identify with your advice. The drier you keep the weapon, the better off. Do you remember that hideous "lubriplate" that was given the Marine Corps and Army in the 50's ? What a joke; it resulted in more jams that anything else I know. Great advice; thanks.
     

    clandestine

    AR-15 Savant
    Oct 13, 2008
    37,031
    Elkton, MD
    Here is his answer to comparing gun metal to car engine metal:

    Simply, the dynamic forces of an internal combustion cannot be associated with the simplicity of the working parts of a gun. As to cleanliness, guns actually stay cleaner when they are dry. Gun chambers work under pressure, but their actions do not. They slip, glide, rotate, and there is little friction in even the most active parts, and these parts are so hardened in good guns that they cannot be abraded with anything but a cutting stone or a very high grade file. Our M16s functioned tirelessly in training exercises and never wore a single operating part out, and were never provided more than a light wipe of light oil. One CANNOT use oil in a gun chamber, and is a very dangerous foreign matter. Anything more than the oil wiped with a single patch for rust prevention can destroy a gun with excess bolt face thrust or bore obstruction. Heat in a gun is entirely unlike engine heat. Guns do not cycle continuously, nor do the working parts create heat. The only potentially destructive heat is barrel heat, which is a non working part. Even when a barrel becomes so hot in military machine guns that the barrel is changed with barrel gloves, the receiver remains almost cool to the touch. Lastly, I repeat what I have said before in other videos... motor oils contain additives that are designed to increase mileage, assist cold or hot starting, and resist breakdown for hundreds of hours of operation, with the aid of engine coolants. These additives are toxic, and cause cancer. Nice stuff to place one's cheek against. I have had skin cancer. Not cool to have skin shaved off. Plain USP drug store mineral oil wiped on any gun in the toughest of service will keep a gun running like a clock. Watch my more recent video on this issue, and I recommend you see how I maintained service revolvers according to Smith & Wesson standards, as taught to me at the factory. The people who build guns have the greatest experience and know what's best for them.

    What gun related schools have you attended (You listed S&W) and where have you worked on firearms in a professional capacity?

    Ill list mine:
    13 years General Gunsmith (Scott's Gunsmithing)
    3 Years Technical AR15 Instructor (School of the American Rifle)

    Im not an expert in all things gun related but AR's are what I live and breathe. I have equal to or in excess of 10,000 plus AR15 that have crossed my bench.

    Motor Oils are not carcinogenic in it's unused state. There is plenty of info out there if you choose to look.

    You are correct about oil in a chamber not being a good thing, but it won't damage a gun unless it causes an obstruction. Unless something else is wrong with the firearm or it's not safe for modern ammunition, It will increase chamber pressure and that is all.

    Everything else you posted is incorrect.

    The simple comment about parts not wearing out shows that you lack working experience on an AR outside a personal collection. Parts certainly do wear out on AR's and other firearms because of insufficient lubrication and/or overcleaning. Had I saved the parts over the years I could fill a industrial trash can.
     

    Qbeam

    Ultimate Member
    Apr 16, 2008
    6,074
    Georgia
    What gun related schools have you attended (You listed S&W) and where have you worked on firearms in a professional capacity?

    Ill list mine:
    13 years General Gunsmith (Scott's Gunsmithing)
    3 Years Technical AR15 Instructor (School of the American Rifle)

    Im not an expert in all things gun related but AR's are. I have equalt it or in excess of 10,000 plus AR15 that have crossed my bench.

    Motor Oils are not carcinogenic in it's unused state. There is plenty of info out there if you choose to look.

    You are correct about oil in a chamber not being a good thing, but it won't damage a gun unless it causes an obstruction. Unless something else is wrong with the firearm or it's not safe for modern ammunition, It will increase chamber pressure and that is all.

    Everything else you posted is incorrect.

    The simple comment about parts not wearing out shows that you lack working experience on an AR outside a personal collection. Parts certainly do wear out on AR's and other firearms because of insufficient lubrication and/or overcleaning. Had I saved the parts over the years I could fill a industrial trash can.

    Clandestine,

    They are going to do what they are going to do. The internets are full of info and depending on who they want to believe, let them. You gave your opinion based on your experiences, and evidently they want to go the opposite way. I run my AR wet, evidently I am going to wear it out faster than lightly lubricating it.

    Q
     

    tkd4life

    Ultimate Member
    Sep 10, 2010
    1,737
    Southern Maryland
    Heat in a gun is entirely unlike engine heat. Guns do not cycle continuously, nor do the working parts create heat. The only potentially destructive heat is barrel heat, which is a non working part. Even when a barrel becomes so hot in military machine guns that the barrel is changed with barrel gloves, the receiver remains almost cool to the touch.

    This couldn't be further from the truth with regard to the AR. The weak point on an AR doing full auto mag dumps has been shown time and time again and it isn't the barrel. You can melt the gas tube right out of an AR. Wana take a guess where that gas goes in a direct impingement AR? Back to the bolt carrier. Why do suppressors get so hot? Well the gas coming out of the muzzle of a gun tends to be a wee bit warm. You know that same gas that is cycling the action via the bolt carrier.

    And heat is a fascinating thing, it tends to spread and dissipate. Does most of the heat start in the barrel and gas system? Sure but nature tends to spread the love around especially when you have things made of such a conductive metal like aluminum. That is why guys have to wear gloves when doing full auto tests. Things get hot. The bolt lugs contact the barrel extension by design. If you have a hot chamber, heat will transfer through this contact into the bolt.

    Machine guns in the military are completely different animals. Both the M249 and M240 are piston driven, completely different design than the AR.
     

    clandestine

    AR-15 Savant
    Oct 13, 2008
    37,031
    Elkton, MD
    Clandestine,

    They are going to do what they are going to do. The internets are full of info and depending on who they want to believe, let them. You gave your opinion based on your experiences, and evidently they want to go the opposite way. I run my AR wet, evidently I am going to wear it out faster than lightly lubricating it.

    Q

    Here is his first post:

    Hi all,

    I'm a new member from Ann Arundel county. I haven't been shooting any rifle since 1990 (M16A1). What have I been missing?

    https://www.mdshooters.com/showpost.php?p=4818581&postcount=1
     

    smokey

    2A TEACHER
    Jan 31, 2008
    31,412
    What gun related schools have you attended (You listed S&W) and where have you worked on firearms in a professional capacity?

    Ill list mine:
    13 years General Gunsmith (Scott's Gunsmithing)
    3 Years Technical AR15 Instructor (School of the American Rifle)

    Im not an expert in all things gun related but AR's are. I have equalt it or in excess of 10,000 plus AR15 that have crossed my bench.

    Motor Oils are not carcinogenic in it's unused state. There is plenty of info out there if you choose to look.

    You are correct about oil in a chamber not being a good thing, but it won't damage a gun unless it causes an obstruction. Unless something else is wrong with the firearm or it's not safe for modern ammunition, It will increase chamber pressure and that is all.

    Everything else you posted is incorrect.

    The simple comment about parts not wearing out shows that you lack working experience on an AR outside a personal collection. Parts icertainly do wear out on AR's and other firearms because of insufficient lubrication and/or overcleaning. Had I saved the parts over the years I could fill a industrial trash can.

    https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...ggnMAE&usg=AFQjCNHnlMMe1WF4c0jSOHqGbId7oIJTOQ
    Heres scientific tests verifying what clandestine is saying about it not being carcenogenic.

    Im interested in michigander please explaining the phenomenon of a gas tube in an ar "glazing" from lubing the BCG and FCG. If you would, please go ahead and explain that for us.
     

    judah7

    Banned
    BANNED!!!
    Mar 18, 2017
    691
    I had to soak my bcg in synthetic motor oil to get it running. Thanks to guy's here for that advice. My bcg was very stiff and was causing my rifle to malfunction until I sat it in that cup of oil, slapped it in the rifle and it's been good to go ever since. So I'm going to go with extra lube with a side of lube.
     

    Doco Overboard

    Ultimate Member
    Why does the Army and Marine Corp manuals advise lightly lube with CLP if dunking or slathering in motor oil is the way to do it? Not trying to start an argument but I guess I am by asking but just wondering. Is that only for combat weapons and not civilian clones?
     

    rbird7282

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Dec 6, 2012
    18,530
    Columbia
    Here is a comment by GunBlue on his video:



    All I can say is that I've never had a hangup with a normally lubricated AR-15, and certainly never had an issue with a dry one. I don't know where these guys get the wet thing. According to them, none of our M-16s worked in combat, because nobody I ever knew did such things. In fact, the cleaning protocol in Vietnam was a perfunctory bath and scrubbing in a half 55 gallon drum of JP4 aircraft fuel that was behind the Company area. In less than an hour, what was left after wiping the excess down evaporated due to its volatility, leaving nothing behind. Then we put them back together, as is. Some guys wiped the guns down with LSA, but most, like me, left them as-is, because it was always dusty, and any trace of oil just made mud pies. That's the way we cleaned everything; M-60 machine guns, 1911 pistols, M-79 grenade launchers, and for those of us who didn't care about the stench contaminating their Camels, even filled our Zippo lighters with it. In fact, there was a very bad issue with guys using the small spray cans of WD40 that was included with our occasional Red Cross "care packages", which contaminated primers. A bulletin circulated, and from that point, nobody wanted to use ANY lube on their guns, whether it was approved or not. Everyone's M-16s worked just fine. You can print anything, and get it published. Publishing something simply means it sounded good to the Editor. It doesn't make it true.



    Everyone's M-16's worked fine? Then why are there so many stories of them not working fine during Vietnam? Could the lack of lubrication have caused any of those issues?
    Whether it's a car engine, a mechanical wristwatch, or a gun, anything made of moving metal parts NEEDS lubrication. Period. Just because you're saying you've never had a problem with a dry AR doesn't mean it's a good idea.
    I'll take my fully lubed "wet" AR any day.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     

    clandestine

    AR-15 Savant
    Oct 13, 2008
    37,031
    Elkton, MD
    Why does the Army and Marine Corp manuals advise lightly lube with CLP if dunking or slathering in motor oil is the way to do it? Not trying to start an argument but I guess I am by asking but just wondering. Is that only for combat weapons and not civilian clones?

    Ever speak to Soldiers or Marines about their issued equipment? Ever see the CLP they issue? It's not big enough to dip anything into. Ever hear about them using engine oil on beltfeds and such? Ever ask how they apply it? It's not with droppers or qtips. They pour it.

    Im sure you are aware that CLP is used to simplify cleaning, protection, and lubrication into one product. It does NONE of it well, aspecially for the AR/M4. If you have used it on an AR or M4 and carried or shot the weapon extensively you will observe the same. It's a product to attempt to stupid proof maintenance that also meet cold temp standards. LSA was a better lube but it wasn't cold temp capible nor did it assist with cleaning.

    The Military Manuals say to lightly lube? Care to highlight where in the current manuals? If you over lubricate as you seem to think is possible, tell me what you have seen happen to negatively effect the weapons operation over lightly lubricating?

    If you lightly lube does any of the following get better?
    Easier to clean or wipe down for inspection?
    Less Malfunctions?
    Better corrosion protection?


    Perhaps you are talking about direct instruction that some DI's and NCO's instruct subordinates to do? Overcleaning an underlubricating is a standard practice the Military that has carried over from Muzzle Loaders, Corrosive Primers, and Bio/Animal Based Products applied to firearms that required such protocols. Those things no longer are necessary with modern ammunition and dino/synthetic lubricants.

    Armorers will often mandate a weapon be spotless when turned in as well which means more cleaning, scrubbing, and scraping so the gauges can read properly. Again just because it's taught does not mean it's right.

    Most consistently Military Manuals for the M4/M16 will give instructions to lubricate generously. Add up or measure the amounts of oil that those instruction say to apply inside the lower and upper via drops and via a finger application and you only get a marginal increase in the amount of oil applied when you dip the half of the carrier as I do. I developed the dip method to simplify a process that does not need to be complex.
     

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