HPRB Under Attack: Hearings 3/12

danb · Mar 29, 2019

In reality, Frosh controls the MSP, not Hogan. Hogan will not change decades of cultural anti gun bs with a signed piece of paper. Frosh will simply tell the MSP to follow the law as his crony judges interpret it, and they will do it.

BeoBill · Mar 29, 2019

Hogan controls the MSP, Frosh and his best buds in the MGA and the courts control the law. Guess who wins?

CrueChief · Mar 29, 2019

It's a sad day when those in power get to pick and chose which laws apply to them or which words mean something different than what is in "common use." But if the regular ( non criminal ) guy even thinks the wrong way then his property gets stolen along with a good amount of his money and time.

Thats why I believe they will force the feds to make them issue regular people carry permits and not do it on the first loss at SCOTUS.

Those people in Annapolis remember it used to say "We the people," right?

Straightshooter · Mar 29, 2019

If the OAH is going to be a rubber stamp for MSP, it really doesn't matter if the HPRB survives or not since the MSP will simply appeal every case to the OAH. Game over.

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Stoveman · Mar 29, 2019

Straightshooter said:
If the OAH is going to be a rubber stamp for MSP, it really doesn't matter if the HPRB survives or not since the MSP will simply appeal every case to the OAH. Game over.

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Any idea of what it costs the agency (MSP) to appeal to the OAH? Ever wonder if they have that number in their budget this year?

Allen65 · Mar 29, 2019

BeoBill said:
Hogan controls the MSP, Frosh and his best buds in the MGA and the courts control the law. Guess who wins?

I'm guessing the answer is "not us"?

F5guy · Mar 29, 2019

A new superintendent would solve all this. The writing is on the wall as long as MGA makes the rules we are out of luck unless SCOTUS or some other court steps in - am I correct. My appeal is pending I’ll wait to see how it’s going at OAH and decide if it’s worth the fight. What is this thing on the 4th does anyone know ?

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Mike OTDP · Mar 29, 2019

I've long looked at this as the setup for Wollard II. From my perspective, we've got a decent case. Not just 2A, but 14th Amendment Due Process.

Stoveman · Mar 29, 2019

danb said:
In reality, Frosh controls the MSP, not Hogan. Hogan will not change decades of cultural anti gun bs with a signed piece of paper. Frosh will simply tell the MSP to follow the law as his crony judges interpret it, and they will do it.

The AG's office, through AAG Bowen, have exerted effective control over the MSP LD for years. Hogan could bust up this power grab with a phone call and force Baron von Frosh to spend some of his Trump fighting funds to defend.

Last we checked Hogan was at what, 80% approval rating? He could easily expend some political capital to regain control of an agency that is supposed to work for him.

Want to bet a paycheck on it?

fabsroman · Mar 29, 2019

Stoveman said:
Any idea of what it costs the agency (MSP) to appeal to the OAH? Ever wonder if they have that number in their budget this year?

They are a government agency. If they use up all the funds required to "adequately" defend HPRB hearings, they will just ask for more money in next year's budget for the cost. Do you think they would not receive the additional funding to contest CCW applications that they believe are being granted in error?

What did MSP do in 2013 when the Form 77R backup occurred. It put more personnel on the matter, and I am pretty sure there was no money budgeted for it because there was no way to know back in early 2012 that something like that would be happening in early 2013.

Same reason Frosh filed a Motion to Dismiss in the MSI/Hulbert lawsuit. A Motion to Dismiss is rarely a winner, but if the defendant has deep pockets it is a way to paper the other side and drag out the litigation. Heck, even if a Motion to Dismiss ends up being a winner, the plaintiff is usually allowed to amend the Complaint if the Statute of Limitations has not expired. Filing a Motion to Dismiss is a way to make the other side spend more and more money on the litigation.

The better question might be, what will it cost the individual applicants to have to deal with the HPRB and then OAH, especially if the applicant for the CCW has hired an attorney for the process.

Then, there is the waste of taxpayer dollars by having MSP spend money at both the HPRB hearing and the OAH hearing.

I don't think we are going to outspend the State of Maryland on 2A issues and thereby have it surrender on the issues because it cannot afford to contest them. It just means more money will come out of our pockets as taxes and/or be shifted from other programs.

fabsroman · Mar 29, 2019

Stoveman said:
The AG's office, through AAG Bowen, have exerted effective control over the MSP LD for years. Hogan could bust up this power grab with a phone call and force Baron von Frosh to spend some of his Trump fighting funds to defend.

Last we checked Hogan was at what, 80% approval rating? He could easily expend some political capital to regain control of an agency that is supposed to work for him.

Want to bet a paycheck on it?

I agree, Hogan could change things at MSP. I am not going to bet a paycheck on it though. Then again, I don't really get "paychecks". I just don't see it happening. Heck, I am just hoping that he vetoes any anti 2A stuff that gets through this year. Hoping in one hand, crapping in the other, and seeing which fills up first.

welder516 · Mar 30, 2019

Stoveman said:
Any idea of what it costs the agency (MSP) to appeal to the OAH? Ever wonder if they have that number in their budget this year?

MSP don't have to appeal "every" case how about 50 % or even 25% that may be enough to discourage anyone to step up to the plate and take a swing .

danb · Mar 30, 2019

Stoveman said:
The AG's office, through AAG Bowen, have exerted effective control over the MSP LD for years. Hogan could bust up this power grab with a phone call and force Baron von Frosh to spend some of his Trump fighting funds to defend.

Last we checked Hogan was at what, 80% approval rating? He could easily expend some political capital to regain control of an agency that is supposed to work for him.

Want to bet a paycheck on it?

Any Superintendent needs Senate approval.

Its not a "power grab," its deeply rooted anti-gun culture thats grown over decades. Been there done that. As a result, any Super he picks who could be confirmed will be anti-gun.

And even if somehow you got a pro-2A Super through the Senate, The remaining 1500 troopers will simply passive aggressively follow AAG Bowens like they always have, because changing culture in an org where you cannot fire people is impossible and takes decades. again, been there done that. MSP is not like the internet, where you can talk a big game and try to change the culture by banning someone.

This trope is and always has been simply a put the crack pipe down pipe dream. My advice as always, put the crack pipe down its clouding your thinking. Hogan cannot change G&S. Frosh and MSP needs their pee-pee whacked hard by the court. The good news, I am fairly sure its coming soon.

welder516 · Mar 30, 2019

danb said:
Any Superintendent needs Senate approval.

Its not a "power grab," its deeply rooted anti-gun culture thats grown over decades. Been there done that. As a result, any Super he picks who could be confirmed will be anti-gun.

And even if somehow you got a pro-2A Super through the Senate, The remaining 1500 troopers will simply passive aggressively follow AAG Bowens like they always have, because changing culture in an org where you cannot fire people is impossible and takes decades. again, been there done that. MSP is not like the internet, where you can talk a big game and try to change the culture by banning someone.

This trope is and always has been simply a put the crack pipe down pipe dream. My advice as always, put the crack pipe down its clouding your thinking. Hogan cannot change G&S. Frosh and MSP needs their pee-pee whacked hard by the court. The good news, I am fairly sure its coming soon.

When the MSP can train the judges to do OAH work we are working with collusion and what i would consider a huge legal error .
Like the fox guarding the hen house .

I hope that you are right and soon they can get the hammer put down on them for all the back-door deals and underhanded chit they have been doing . And i do mean all the MSP Troopers that work in the LD and keep trying to sell us that they are fair . I also lay it at the feet of the now OAH that is a crooked as the LD or the MSP .

welder516 · Mar 30, 2019

I think by also challenging them is putting them back on their heels to react and to bob and weave , which will be where they mess up . They are doomed not us , liars and cheats are exposed .

Straightshooter · Mar 30, 2019

welder516 said:
I think by also challenging them is putting them back on their heels to react and to bob and weave , which will be where they mess up . They are doomed not us , liars and cheats are exposed .

I couldn't agree less. These people dont give a good shit if they are exposed. When cornered, they just roll out their line of onesies, bibs and baby blankets and then keep on keeping on.

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danb · Mar 30, 2019

welder516 said:
When the MSP can train the judges to do OAH work we are working with collusion and what i would consider a huge legal error .
Like the fox guarding the hen house .

I hope that you are right and soon they can get the hammer put down on them for all the back-door deals and underhanded chit they have been doing . And i do mean all the MSP Troopers that work in the LD and keep trying to sell us that they are fair . I also lay it at the feet of the now OAH that is a crooked as the LD or the MSP .

I dont think that MSP is training the judges to do OAH work, I think that Frosh's office is ~~"training"~~ indoctrinating both.

Frosh and Bowen are in complete denial and busy tilting at windmills like the emoluments case. They somehow think that the NYSRPA case being heard in Oct will have no bearing on outside the home 2A, even though the CA court put some cases on hold while waiting for an opinion.

I also think that they fail to realize that the people who go through the ridiculous process are highly motivated, generally pre-screened by instructors, and as a rule have deeper pockets than most to seek counsel. I expect some to give up, but the rest will likely make excellent plaintiffs. The HPRB was never more than the spillway at best, a few hundred permits a year IIRC. Choke off the spillway, the water builds up and the dam collapses pretty fast.

Allen65 · Mar 30, 2019

danb said:
I also think that they fail to realize that the people who go through the ridiculous process are highly motivated, generally pre-screened by instructors, and as a rule have deeper pockets than most to seek counsel. I expect some to give up, but the rest will likely make excellent plaintiffs. The HPRB was never more than the spillway at best, a few hundred permits a year IIRC. Choke off the spillway, the water builds up and the dam collapses pretty fast.

^^^^This. I personally know someone who has the cash for attorney fees and is itching to take the fight against the pointless, arbitrary restrictions on his permit into Circuit Court and on to the MD Court of Appeals, if needed. The smart thing for MSP LD to do would be just drop his restrictions now and remove his standing to sue.

danb · Mar 30, 2019

Allen65 said:
^^^^This. I personally know someone who has the cash for attorney fees and is itching to take the fight against the pointless, arbitrary restrictions on his permit into Circuit Court and on to the MD Court of Appeals, if needed. The smart thing for MSP LD to do would be just drop his restrictions now and remove his standing to sue.

There is probably more than one, and I have zero doubt some members here will donate $$ to help with the cause, perhaps through MSI.

This is why I have mixed feelings about this bill. One the one hand, obviously I don't want it to pass. On the other hand, I don't want to interrupt the enemy while they are making a huge mistake. Yes, I realize its a minority opinion.

fabsroman · Mar 30, 2019

welder516 said:
MSP don't have to appeal "every" case how about 50 % or even 25% that may be enough to discourage anyone to step up to the plate and take a swing .

The question really is, what do the OAH hearing results look like? Do they look fair? Statistics would be nice.

If MSP appeals 100% of the HPRB decisions that overturn the MSP, then what good is it to even have the HPRB as a decision maker if we are off to OAH for a new "trial"? The HPRB is essentially worthless if the deep pockets of the state will always appeal to OAH.

For me, the process would be simple. If somebody does not like the MSP denial of their CCW permit application, then appeal to OAH for a trial. After that, an appeal to Circuit Court, either de novo or on the record, and let the Circuit Court start establishing some precedence on all of this. Heck, I would actually go with a trial de novo at the Circuit Court level and let the Circuit Court establish precedence for the OAH to follow. Over time, everybody starts to understand what G&S really means.

Better yet, move the venue in the Circuit Court to the applicant's county of residence. No more of this BS where Baltimore County Circuit Court Judges are making decisions for people living in western Maryland or the Eastern Shore.

All wishful thinking.

HPRB Under Attack: Hearings 3/12

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