"Copycat" sbr Question

1time · Aug 16, 2015

sharmo2 said:
I happened to be the first POF 308 SBR to come through MSP since they added SBRs to the handgun roster. Since it was not on their list yet my FFL had to ship it to them for inspection/molestation before they would give me the CLEO so they might already have a definitive answer for me.

Did they inspect it with the muzzle brake?

sharmo2 · Aug 16, 2015

Not sure what they do when they ask to have a rifle shipped to them for inspection and approval to be added to the roster. It was sent to them with the factory muzzle brake so I will ask them.

j_h_smith · Aug 16, 2015

sharmo2 said:
I was just gonna email a pic of the muzzle brake off of google images and ask them what they thought. Predictably they'll tell me its an evil feature but you never know. I keep all my firearm configurations legal so I'm not worried about anyone knocking on my door.

I wouldn't do that. Buy a muzzle brake, keep any documentation, just in case.

BigDaddy · Aug 16, 2015

sharmo2 said:
I was just gonna email a pic of the muzzle brake off of google images and ask them what they thought. Predictably they'll tell me its an evil feature but you never know. I keep all my firearm configurations legal so I'm not worried about anyone knocking on my door.

j_h_smith said:
I wouldn't do that. Buy a muzzle brake, keep any documentation, just in case.

That was the theory of the guy on the Military Arms Channel about the Sig brace and the recent ATF letter. People kept peppering the ATF with letters until they had to change their opinion. Given that some brakes are also advertised as flash hiders, it wouldn't be a big step for the increasingly aggressive MSP to decide all brakes are flash hiders.

outrider58 · Aug 16, 2015

BigDaddy said:
That was the theory of the guy on the Military Arms Channel about the Sig brace and the recent ATF letter. People kept peppering the ATF with letters until they had to change their opinion. Given that some brakes are also advertised as flash hiders, it wouldn't be a big step for the increasingly aggressive MSP to decide all brakes are flash hiders.

My thoughts exactly. If it doesn't say "Not a flash hider'' on it, some may construe it as being a flash hider.

1time · Aug 16, 2015

If it is factory on the gun and the MSP added it to the roster and approved the CLEO sign off after inspection I would call it good. What else are you looking for?

ducrider45 · Aug 17, 2015

Are NFA items subject to the evil features test?

Pinecone · Aug 17, 2015

Just read the law. As has been posted, if it FUNCTIONS to suppress flash, it IS a flash suppressor, no matter what it is called, what it is sold as, or anything else.

Unless the roster board fired it with and without the muzzle brake, there is no way they can tell if it functions as such or not.

outrider58 · Aug 17, 2015

1time said:
If it is factory on the gun and the MSP added it to the roster and approved the CLEO sign off after inspection I would call it good. What else are you looking for?

A grenade launcher.

swinokur · Aug 17, 2015

ducrider45 said:
Are NFA items subject to the evil features test?

yes BATF will kick it back for < 29"

don't know about the other evil features test but if you're caught, you may face charges IMO.

use an abundance of caution. gun convictions don't go away.

IANAL

outrider58 · Aug 17, 2015

swinokur said:
yes BATF will kick it back for < 29"

don't know about the other evil features test but if you're caught, you may face charges IMO.

use an abundance of caution. gun convictions don't go away.

IANAL

But yer guns will.

sharmo2 · Aug 17, 2015

Pinecone:
Seems like a gray area. Its my understanding that the purpose of a muzzle brake is to reduce recoil not to not to supress or hide the flash.

swinokur · Aug 17, 2015

It's not a gray area. The law sates if a device is either designed orr FUNCTIONS as a flash hider, for purposes of the copycat provision, it's considered a flash hider. A simple test can be used to see the results. Remove the brake and discharge the weapon.Observe the flash. Put the brake on, discharge again, if there is less flash, it's considered a flash suppressor for purposes of FSA2013

From the bill

[FONT=&quot]1[/FONT][FONT=&quot]2 [/FONT][FONT=&quot]([/FONT][FONT=&quot]G[/FONT][FONT=&quot]) “F[/FONT][FONT=&quot]L[/FONT][FONT=&quot]AS[/FONT][FONT=&quot]H SUPPRESSOR[/FONT][FONT=&quot]” [/FONT][FONT=&quot]M[/FONT][FONT=&quot]E[/FONT][FONT=&quot]ANS A DEVICE THAT FUNCTIONS[/FONT][FONT=&quot], [/FONT][FONT=&quot]O[/FONT][FONT=&quot]R IS[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]1[/FONT][FONT=&quot]3 [/FONT][FONT=&quot]INTENDED TO FUNCTION[/FONT][FONT=&quot], [/FONT][FONT=&quot]T[/FONT][FONT=&quot]O PERCEPTIBLY REDUCE OR REDIRECT MUZZLE[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]1[/FONT][FONT=&quot]4 [/FONT][FONT=&quot]F[/FONT][FONT=&quot]L[/FONT][FONT=&quot]AS[/FONT][FONT=&quot]H FROM THE SHOOTER[/FONT][FONT=&quot]’[/FONT][FONT=&quot]S FIELD OF VISION[/FONT][FONT=&quot].[/FONT]

DaemonAssassin · Aug 17, 2015

So logic would dictate that the M4 barreled AR15 is legal for sale in MD, because it does not have a grenade launcher on it?

outrider58 · Aug 17, 2015

DaemonAssassin said:
So logic would dictate that the M4 barreled AR15 is legal for sale in MD, because it does not have a grenade launcher on it?

You know better than to apply logic here. :nono:

sharmo2 · Aug 17, 2015

swinokur said:
It's not a gray area. The law sates if a device is either designed orr FUNCTIONS as a flash hider, for purposes of the copycat provision, it's considered a flash hider. A simple test can be used to see the results. Remove the brake and discharge the weapon.Observe the flash. Put the brake on, discharge again, if there is less flash, it's considered a flash suppressor for purposes of FSA2013

From the bill

I believe I have my answer now. I don't know if a muzzle brake reduces muzzle flash but it definitely redirects it so its a no go and would be a "copycat" Thanks!

1time · Aug 17, 2015

sharmo2 said:
I believe I have my answer now. I don't know if a muzzle brake reduces muzzle flash but it definitely redirects it so its a no go and would be a "copycat" Thanks!

It says redirects it from the shooters field of vision. Not just redirects it. Like was posted before. Shoot without it, then with it. With a good muzzle brake you will see more flash with it. With a good flash hider you will see more flash without it.

Pinecone · Aug 18, 2015

sharmo2 said:
Pinecone:
Seems like a gray area. Its my understanding that the purpose of a muzzle brake is to reduce recoil not to not to supress or hide the flash.

NOT a gray area.

MD law says if it functions to suppress flash, it is flash suppressor according to the law.

It doesn't matter if it is designed and sold as a muzzle brake, if it suppresses the flash, any amount, it is a flash suppressor.

You could call it a barrel dildo, and if it suppressed the flash, in MD is it a flash suppressor for the feature test.

Pinecone · Aug 18, 2015

DaemonAssassin said:
So logic would dictate that the M4 barreled AR15 is legal for sale in MD, because it does not have a grenade launcher on it?

Under the copy cat provisions, yes.

HOWEVER, it is an an named banned firearm or an imitation (swap-able parts and still functions) as a named banned firearm.

Tavor - Not named as banned, but banned due to copy cat provisions.

M1A - Fine under copy cat provisions, banned by name.

The get you coming and going.

DaemonAssassin · Aug 18, 2015

Pinecone said:
Under the copy cat provisions, yes.

HOWEVER, it is an an named banned firearm or an imitation (swap-able parts and still functions) as a named banned firearm.

Tavor - Not named as banned, but banned due to copy cat provisions.

M1A - Fine under copy cat provisions, banned by name.

The get you coming and going.

What a load of crap...

"Copycat" sbr Question

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